/fringe/ - Fringe

Hello fellow fringe'ers. I've made this type of post in a few other places on the net, my life's work is teaching others.

since there's a lot of very sincere seekers and students here, I'd like to share some things and hopefully help others to progress on their path.

The posts I put in this thread are about the goal of Yoga (union) practice (along with the tools yogi's employ), which is essentially the goal of most spiritual/esoteric/religious systems. All my effort goes towards introducing authentic yoga to people who only know it from the confused, bare-bones, and uninformed schools of yoga that have taken root all over the world. I hate to sound elitist, but it's the reality of the situation.

Studying and practicing yoga is my life's work. Practically everything I've done in my life has lead to the work I do now as a teacher. Everything here is only an introduction, I'll give out my email once I'm done in case anyone wishes to learn more about the practices and teachings. These short excerpts are from two of the more knowledgable teachers from the modern age. Most of this isn't online anywhere.

I don't intend to disparage anyones practices, or claim that my understanding is any more or less complete than anyone else.

One quick note before I begin: Many of you may have heard of the terms Karma yoga, Bhakti yoga, Jnana, Raja, etc.. these are usually thought of as different styles of practice, or different types of yogi's, but in actuality they are "stages" which aspirants pass through on their path. A linear progression, not different types of Yoga. Just a common mistake I see. There are some traditions which identify themselves under specific names, but all have a common root.

"It is wonderful that the one who takes one from darkness to light has been found. Otherwise there would be death - meaning: there would be no escape from birth and death. The purpose of this body is to be free from birth and death. If the knowledge of atman does not happen in this body, then there is death, verily.

What kind of death is this? Like when flying insects, upon seeing the light of a lamp, fall into it because they think that there is no other light as complete (fulfilling) as this. Thus deluded, they fall into (the flame) and burn and die. In the same way, human beings, unable to see the self (atman), are burning and dying in the flash and filigree of this false (round of worldly existence/maya/samsara), because they think that the pleasures and indulgences of the world make up the most complete happiness, and that other than this there is nothing that is good (fulfilling).

But because of finding (the one who takes one from darkness to light/guru='gu' aka darkness and ‘ru’ aka light), one has seen the delusion, and has been saved from such a death."

- Shama Churn

Student - "Guruji, in the olden times, was it not like a sect? It was still called Nath samapradaya?”

['samapradaya' commonly means a group]

Guruji - (Shri Shailendra Sharma) : "See, samapradaya means 'to give equally' -sama means 'equal', pradaya means 'to give'. Basically to teach what we have learned ourselves. Now if you are teaching equally, you’d have to follow the strict discipline, along with all the pledges. These days it has nothing to do with teaching equally. Now it means a cult or a group.

Now yoga traditions were the only true samapradaya, because if you don’t teach what you’ve practiced, how would anybody learn? It was never about creating followers, or have disciples lie at the feet of the guru, getting kicked around, in the hope that one day guru would wake up and with one blessing turn their life around.

And the guru would know that if he told the disciple whatever little he knew himself - some mantra or something else - then the disciple wouldn’t give a damn about him anymore. So they’d continue to keep it a secret. This is exactly what has happened in most tantric traditions.

There have been so many cults around Bhakti (devotion). Why do you think that the only display of power was done by people who started these cults, and not by their subsequent followers? That is because they used to practice something else and taught their followers something else.

Only in yoga one teaches what one practices, and that is true samapradayikta, whatever be its definition today. Otherwise, the standards could not be maintained. This approach is nowhere else. Even Yogananda didn’t teach what he himself learned.

The teachings should never be trifled with! Nobody is born such a genius that they could better the results arrived at by the old masters. After so many austerities and hard work they extracted the essence of these techniques and passed down that essence to their future generations. Why be a wise-ass and corrupt that knowledge? Only if you follow the instructions exactly as given you'll get the results, not otherwise.

That’s why there aren’t so many yoga traditions, only a couple. There are many meditation groups, but they are not becoming yogis. Only when you follow the yogic way of life with all its discipline, and then someone tells you the mysteries of these teachings, the awareness will develop."

"Kabir sangshay khaya sakal jag, sangshay koi na khaay jo bedha guru acchar, so sangshay chuni khaay." (Number 9 of Kabir’s couplets)

Translation: Kabir is saying that the entire world is being eaten up by doubt and uncertainty - meaning: Everyone is living in doubt and uncertainty - but no one is eating up doubt and uncertainty. One who has found out the difference between the world/guru and the 'imperishable self’ is thoroughly chewing up and eating doubt and uncertainty.

Comments by Shama Churn: "Upon becoming restless, the atman-self’s mind is going in two directions, sometimes to (god/absolute/the “real"), sometimes to (samsara/maya/illusion). Sometimes he thinks that samsara is real and sometimes he thinks that god is real. But in both are doubt and uncertainty. Because of mind being in two places, two yoni’s (wombs) are there. One is the Brahman-yoni Lord, but there is a complete movement away from that - meaning: one is moving from being united, to another “thing”.

When mind moves from one substance to another thing, then that second thing takes birth - meaning: a desire forms in that. It is like when a man and woman become attracted to each other and he enters her, and they themselves take birth in her womb, but find doubt in accepting the child as themselves, in the same way, this great doubt is eating up the world. What this means is: (god/absolute/the “real”) is everywhere; atman (self) is also everywhere.

Wherever there is atman, there is also jiva (individual soul). And within all individuals is this doubt and uncertainty. Engrossed in thinking about this - meaning: does brahamn exist or not - they are dying in the constant doubting of this. But no one is eating up this doubt. When the mind becomes restless, doubt comes around. When man, attracted to woman, enters her, at that time he is restless. Thus, not knowing the true nature, a doubt takes place. In that same way, because of the constant doubting “is there (god/absolute/ the 'real') or not” birth and death are taking place.

When this restlessness become still, then doubt itself is eaten up - meaning: if there is stillness, then who is there to doubt? The person who, via the self, has seen Kutastha from the self, and has entered into the particle of Kutastha and has seen the three worlds along with himself within that (the three worlds), and has made everything one - his name is “bedha” = “bheda” (distinct knowing). He thoroughly chews up and eats doubt.

When one sees that the three worlds are within himself, and within the three worlds sees himself, then oneness is. Doubt is in the dual - meaning: is there a god or not? When oneness is, then doubt is eaten up.

It is like when a bird opens the two lips of his beak to take food, and at the time of swallowing closes the beak - meaning: it makes the two lips one - “is there a god or not” is when the two lips are open, and when doubt goes away, there is one brahman stillness - meaning: doubt is swallowed up. Then the two lips of the beak become one and no longer remain two."

Student - 'What is Karmayoga?'

Shama Churn - 'The action which causes a union with god is 'Karma (action)' and to remain united with that karma incessantly is 'Karmayoga (action-union, Kriyayoga)'. Others are all inactions. God is not an object who has descended from the sky, this is a state. This is the still state of 'prana (life force)'. Still prana in a living being deriving vibration has assumed the forms of intelligence, mind, senses, etc.. and remains enchanted by this.

This is a living being's deviated state from his original form or else this is the state of declension from still prana to dynamic prana. Stillness is a living being's original form. Dynamism represents a living being and stillness represents shiva (absolute/"god"). Therefore the action which terminates that dynamism and reverts a living being again to stillness or the action that causes a living beings state to be extinct and elevates him to the state of shiva, is known as karma yoga. Nothing occurs without action.

Whatever we desire to obtain or give are termed to be action. Without action nothing can be acquired, thus without action god also cannot be obtained; implying stillness cannot be achieved. Some action must to be performed to achieve god. Can god be found through the medium of different types of actions performed materialistically? Certainly not, because a little of these types of actions are performed by all. Then why do they not find god? Japa (mantras), vows, fasting, chanting together, virtuous acts, undertaking pilgrimages, helping others, serving guests, compassion for living beings, etc.. are all actions which are performed by everyone in small degrees, but then why do they not obtain god?

Thus god cannot be achieved by performing these actions because these actions are incapable of causing soul-visualization. But performing these actions purifies the mind of man, these act as aids in the path of sadhana. Thus these actions are necessary. Action will produce consequences, this is the disposition of action. Evil actions produce bad consequences and for good actions good consequences are inevitable. The results produced are in equation to actions performed.

Just as, if hunger is to be appeased the action of taking food is necessary, and other action will not be feasible. Similarly to attain soul-realization, atmakarma (soul-action) is necessary. The gita says: "samnyasastu mahabaha duhkshamaptumyogatah" - meaning: Dear arjuna, barring karma yoga (yoga of action), achieving renunciation is impossible. The state beyond action can be termed to be true renunciation. Then actions are absent. This state of renunciation can be attained through action only. Nothing can be achieved without action."'

"This Kriyayogaic breathing action is an ancient science. In almost every line of Vedas, Upanishads, Gita and the sastra of Tantrayoga, their esotericism and expedience ave been expounded. The symbol of yoga is reflected in regular worship and in all types of religious actions. At present, just as the deities are concealed under the symbols, similarly under the influence of superficial worship, "The true obeisance/worship/union/soul action" has become concealed.

With regard to the puranic historical viewpoint, Krishna imparted this yoga to Arjuna. Many great souls had practised sadhana in this path of yoga throughout the world and achieved immense spiritual fulfilment. Among them the renowned were Kapil muni, King Janaka, Vyasadeva, Sukhdeva, Patanjala, Socrates, Jesus Christ, Saint John, Saint Paul, Dadudayal, Kabir, Ruhidas, Nanak, Jnaneswar, Tukaram, Ramdas Swami, Ramprasad Sen, Gautama Buddha, Mahavira Jain, etc.. God has stated that when he had once descended in the past, he had imparted this sublime imperishable yoga technique to the Soul-Sun (Surya). Surya had given it to Manu and Manu to Ikshaku. The great sages in this manner handed down this yoga to successive generations; but the yoga has lost its significance due to the onslaught of time.

Thus the still Pranaic PranaKrishna (Literally the term 'Krishna' is an noun but yogically it is a verb. As a verb the term 'Krishna' connotes that a yogi has to cultivate his body-field for annihilating dynamism and attaining stillness), had imparted this immortal yoga to Surya. Prana is Surya (Soul-Sun); the motion of Prana occurs in the Ida and Pingala and this Pingala is known as the sun nerve and Ida is known as the moon nerve.

Therefore the airflow of Prana within the Pingala nerve is Surya. God mentioned to Surya or else that inexpressible state of the still PranaKrishna by entering the nerve of the sun in the form of dynamism, manifested himself dynamically or the sill Pranaic PranaKrishna who reveals himself as the dynamic Prana in the nerve of the sun is the explicit state of yoga. After this Surya imparted this to Manu (Manu means the mind).

When Prana becomes vibratory, this vibratory state acquires a designation of the mind and that mind becomes the expressive state of imperishable yoga in that designation. The still state of air is the state of yoga union. From that still state, vibration evolved and in the sun nerve and mind the state of expression or manifestation of yoga appeared. This is clarified thus, the still Pranalike soul driving vibration was expressed as Surya in the Pingala form, from the Surya to the mind, form the mind to Ikshaku signifying that this sublime eternal yoga became manifest within the external air of the nose.

Amidst the fourfold lives from celibacy to relinquishment of four social orders, the yoga-culture was positively maintained by people belonging to the different strata of society. Almost all the kings of the Raghu dynasty eventually departed abiding by the path of yoga. That sequence in our country was unimpaired till the time of the great poet Kalidasa.

In the first great epic of the Raghu dynasty the evidence of this fact can be underlined from the statement "Yoganantye tanutyajam" Later due to the onslaught of time it became extinct. The avatars preached this sublime yoga sadhana to humanity by again disentangling it from the clutches of time, by amending its austerities and making it suitable for the present spiritually debilitated mankind. This is their supreme bestowal to the whole of humanity and to the universal storehouse of knowledge."

-Shama Churn

Kriya-yoga (Action-Union/true Karma-yoga, "soul action") has five items - Talavya, Pranayama, Nabhikriya, Yonimudra and Mahamudra. These five item total the first chapter of Kriya-yoga.

When a devotee can complete the first chapter he is eligible to obtain the second chapter. In total, Kriya-yoga has six chapters. Omkara-kriya features from the second till the sixth chapter. The mystery of Kriya-yoga sadhana can be derived exclusively from the guru.

Through Talavya, the obstruction of the toungue is released; through Pranayama, Prana and Apana airs are stilled; through Nabhikriya, Samana air achieves a state of evenness; through Yonimudra, soul-realization occurs and through Mahamudra, Vyana and Udana airs achieve a state of settlement.

By conquering the five Pranas in this manner, settling in the void essence at Kutastha and by arriving at the state beyond action the Kriyaban is capable of wandering in the realm of his self.

- Shama Churn

“Focused and remaining in the transcendental state of kriya - that state is one of darkness and sleep for all of the phenomenal world, and that state which all people who are looking with attachment and perceiving as the waking state - the “munis" (sages), meaning those who have spontaneously become “mouni” (mute) - who do not have the desire to say anything - they see them (people of worldly perspective) as being in darkness, meaning sleep.”

"If atmakarma is regularly practised, one day you will reach the state beyond all actions, or the source or origin which is the objective and then you will have a communion with the infinite soul and realize yourself."

"This path of sadhana is scripturally regarded as soul-knowledge, spiritual knowledge or brahma-knowledge. (Shama Churn named it Kriyayoga or kriya) This kriyayoga is logical and scientific. The fact that it is entirely scientific is because it is described to be as accurate as mathematics."

"Kriya means action. the karma yoga of the gita is kriyayoga. Karma also infers action. Nothing can be achieved without action, therefore much stress has been laid on karma yoga in the gita. The name of kriyayoga has been mentioned in the Patanjala yoga philosophy and in many other places in the sastras."

"The soul within you is the soul which pervades all elements. Therefore the soul of all the elements exists within you. There is no difference, thus it is you who becomes the all pervasive soul, "Jagannatha (master of the universe)". The moment you specially realize this in kriya's transcendental state, you can realize the mental inclinations of everybody and it is then by achieving omniscience you will automatically learn about the attributes and actions of all elements. Then by being omnipotent all action can be performed with a non-desirable wish.

By this type of profound Kriya, realization of the subtlest of the subtle (molecule like) self occurs, leading to the removal of pride and a pride-less state will be achieved. You are Kutastha, pay reverence to him, it is repeated again - pay reverence to him. Do non desist from paying this reverence because you only are kutastha-like almighty soul and you are beyond the five essences, the mind, intellect and self conceit. When you become one in kriya's transcendental state then you only are the supreme pervading the universe, without you the world does not exist, thus good, evil, and imagination do not exist.

If you attain oneness, you are the imperishable and indestructible one, the tranquil pure consciousness and immortal. Then where are your birth, action, propensity and pride? Therefore by abandoning the divisions of this and the fact that everything is the self, become doubtless positively about this in the transcendental state of kriya. You are perceiving the world because you are not within yourself, but in kriya's transcendental state when you will remain within yourself then you only will become the reality.

Just for once contemplate on the fact that barring you, everything is absent, you are materialistic and non-materialistic because when you concentrate on extraneous matters you are materialistic, again by remaining within yourself or in the transcendental state of kriya, you are non-materialistic. Everything evolves in this universe in accordance with your volition; in kriya's transcendental state after the cessation of desires you will positively know that the universe is a fallacy merely and by obtaining the knowledge that the entire universe is pervaded by brahma you will attain equilibrium. Then you are neither in bondage nor are liberated and being crowned with success in this manner you will wander in beatitude, this is the maxim of kriyayoga."

-Shama Churn

There, that should be good for now. My email is zimmer101@icloud.com

Feel free to get in touch if you have any questions.

Thank you for your contribution. If you want the thread moved anywhere you can just ask in the thread. There is no way to prevent the thread from being saged into "page 15" so you will have to bump it yourself from time to time.

You are also welcome to join the IRC by clicking the button in the top menu. It would be nice to talk to you live.

Once, the sage felt inclined to abandon his body and to ensure that he would never again return to embodiment. He resorted to a cave, sat down, and said this within himself:

O attraction, abandon your force of attraction.

O hate, abandon hatred. You have played long enough with me.

O pleasures, salutations to you; you have indeed sustained me all these years and even made me forget the self.

O sorrow, salutations to you; you spurred me on my quest for self-knowledge and it is by your grace that I have attained this self-knowledge; hence you are indeed the bestower of delight.

O body, my friend, permit me to go to my eternal abode of self-knowledge. Such indeed is the course of nature; everyone has to abandon the body at some time or the other.

O body, my friend, you have been my relation for a long time. I abandon you now. You yourself have brought on this separation by nobly leading me to the realization of the self. How wonderful! In order to enable me to attain self-knowledge, you have destroyed yourself.

O mother craving! Give me leave to go; you are now left alone to wither away, because I have reached the state of supreme peace.

O lust! in order to conquer you, I befriended your enemy dispassion; forgive me. I proceed to freedom; bless me.

O merit! Salutations to you, for you rescued me from hell and led me to heaven. Salutations to demerit, the source of pain and punishment. Salutations to delusion under which I laboured for a long time and which is not seen by me even now.

O cave, the companion of meditation, salutation to you. You have given me shelter when I was tormented by the pains of worldly existence.

O staff, you have been my friend too, protecting me from snakes, etc.. and you have saved me from falling into a pit, etc.. Salutations to you.

O body, return to the elements of which you are composed. Salutations to activities like bathing; salutations to all the activities in this world. Salutations to the life-forces that have been my companions. Whatever I did in this world was done only with you, through you and because of your energy. Pray, return to your own source, for now I shall merge in the infinite consciousness. All things that come together in this world have to part one day or the other.

O senses, return to your own sources, the cosmic elements.

I shall now enter into the self by the self indicated by the culmination of the "sound" (as a lamp without fuel). I am free from all the activities of this world and from all notions of perceptions and experiences. My heart is established in the peace indicated by the resonance of the "sound". Gone are delusion and error.

Don't you think using these old terms is unnecessary truth does not need to be observed from the context of the past, you should still apply with modern, and english words.

>>4275

>truth

Which one?

>Don't you think using these old terms is unnecessary

If you want to learn real Yoga, real Tantra, real Vedanta etc. you have to use them. If you don't then just don't use said systems. It is impossible to translate something from Sanskrit to English without losing some meaning. Not to mention that Sanskrit is a sacred language, based on the vibrations (much like Hebrew but not Jewish) and using mantras translated into English would strip them of their power.

>the context of the past, you should still apply with modern, and english words

These words are modern, because they are still used. Much like most English words have a very long history but they are still considered modern. The systems are not a part of the past. They are eternal.

Also, why do you think OP *should* do anything?

I'm not a great yogi, but I know a lot about Tantra. They are very ancient and very complex systems and using them requires one to know the terminology. Much like with any system.

When I read Śakti, I know that the author talks about the active principle, power, the creatrix, the Goddess, certain aspect of the universe (and possibly many other things depending on the context). It is much easier to use these terms than to explain each time what you mean. Anyway, if you stripped the system of it's cultural characteristics would it still be the same system? Would it still be as much effective? Some answer yes, but usually these are people who get stuck up on the most basic misconception - i.e. "tantric sex" and they do not know anything about the true system.

I think that if you learned authentic Yoga, or Tantra or whatever you could do without those terms, but at that time you wouldn't mind them because you'd already know them inside out.

Furthermore, there are certain rites in Tantra and Tantric Yoga (and Hatha Yoga, but Hatha came from Tantra anyway) which require the practitioner to place certain letters or words of the Sanskrit alphabet in certain places of the body and vibrating them. This can't be done in English.

Complaining that the foreign system has foreign words is stupid. It's like I'd learn Enochian magic and strip it of the one thing that makes it so powerful - Enochian language itself - and use English translations of the Calls or whatever.

>>4275

Truth doesn't need context at all.

It's just easier to use some sanskrit words here and there. I'd rather use terms like "maya" or "prana" instead of going into verbose explanations of individual concepts, or using "modern" words that don't convey the same meaning.

“God - the knower - is non-dimensional.

God's thinking is two-dimensional.

God's creative actions are three-dimensional.”

- Walter Russell

“The Creator is One Mind indivisible. Creation is One Whole Idea of Mind divided into countless simulated ideas of mind, through motion.” - Walter Russell

Am trying to get into yoga, to understand yoga, but i still have no idea what i'm doing.

This topic is fantastic. Still very confusing to me, but fantastic anyway.

>>4366

If you want to take the first steps, send me an email, I'd be glad to help.

Master: "Be on friendly terms with your brothers. It looks well. You must have noticed in your theatrical performance that if four singers sing each in a different way, the play is spoiled."

Actor: "Yes, sir. Many birds are trapped in a net; if they all fly together and drag the net in one direction, then many of them may be saved. But that doesn't happen if they try to fly in different directions.

One also sees in a theatrical performance a person keeping a pitcher of water on his head and at the same time dancing about."

Master: "Live in the world but keep the pitcher steady on your head; that is to say, keep the mind firmly on god.

I once said to the sepoys from the barracks: 'Do your duty in the world but remember that the pestle of death will some time smash your hand. Be alert about it.'

In kamarpukur I have seen the women of carpenter families making flattened rice with a husking machine. One woman kicks the end of the wooden beam, and another woman, while nursing her baby, turns the paddy in the mortar dug in the earth. The second woman is always alert lest the pestle of the machine should fall on her hand. With the other hand she fries the soaked paddy in a pan. Besides, she is talking with customers; she says: 'You owe us so much money. Please pay it before you go.'

Likewise, do your different duties in the world, fixing your mind on god. But practice is necessary, and one should also be alert. Only in this way can one safeguard both - god and the world."

Actor: "Sir, what is the proof that the soul is separate from the body?

Master: "Proof? God can be seen. By practising spiritual discipline one sees god, through his grace. The rishis directly realized the self. One cannot know the truth about god through science. Science gives us information only about things perceived by the senses, as for instance: this material mixed with this material gives such and such a result.

For this reason a man cannot comprehend spiritual things with his ordinary intelligence. To understand them he must live in the company of holy persons. You learn to feel the pulse by living with a physician."

Actor: "Yes, sir. Now I understand."

Master: "You must practice tapasya (spiritual action). Only then can you attain the goal. It will avail you nothing even if you learn the texts of the scriptures by heart. You cannot become intoxicated by merely saying "siddhi" over and over. You must swallow some.

One cannot explain the vision of god to others. One cannot explain conjugal happiness to a child five years old."

Actor: "How does one realize the atman?"

……………………………………

Master: "You asked me about self-realization. Longing is the means of realizing atman. A man must strive to attain god with all his body, with all his mind, and with all his speech. Because of an excess of bile one gets jaundice. Then one sees everything as yellow; one perceives no colour but yellow. Among you actors, those who take only the roles of women acquire the nature of a women; by thinking of woman your ways and thoughts become womanly. Just so, by thinking day and night of god one acquires the nature of god.

The mind is like white linen just returned from the laundry. It takes on the colour you dip it in."

Actor: "But it must first be sent to the laundry."

Master: "Yes. First is the purification of the mind. Afterwards, if you direct the mind to the contemplation of god, it will be coloured by god-consciousness. Again if you direct the mind to worldly duties, such as the acting of a play, it will be coloured by worldiness."

"You ought to be known as the supreme imperishable. You are the supreme receptacle of all this. You are the immutable, the guardian of the eternal law. You are the everlasting spirit. This is my conviction.

…………………………………………………

Without beginning, middle, or end, of infinite vitality, with infinite arms and with moon and sun as eyes: I behold you - Your blazing mouths eating everything as an oblation - burning up all this with your own brilliance.

By you alone is this space between heaven and earth pervaded, and all the quarters too. Seeing this wondrous, terrifying form of yours, the triple world shudders, O great self."

>>4016

Why is he is he bald, bulbous-nosed, old, and flabby?

Yoga is not a doctrine but a skill set of certain knowledge with blatant results.

>>6234

Your eyes have spotted a probable agent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahiri_Mahasaya

>>6241

Just an average curry nigger, is all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKa0XgisJIQ

>>4016

Might as well ask here since it's strictly yoga related.

How does the western idea of etheric body as distinct from astral body fit in with yoga? As I understand they are bundeled together in yoga as the pranamaya kosha, which is then again divided into the 4 (five you you consider akasha an element as such) elemental pranas.

I ask because despite relatively intense practice of both yoga and western meditations I am yet to convince myself that there is a distinction. It seems that the etheric body is the coarsest part of the astral body; the point where the physical touches the astral; this point can be considered it's own integral level of existance, but - why? Is there a real point to this?

I'm confused and curious what you guys think

>>11434

>which is then again divided into the 4 (five you you consider akasha an element as such) elemental pranas

The distinction into five pranas (Prana, Apana, Udana etc.) is based not on the elements but on the function each prana has in the body and the processes that it governs, but they are all fundamentally the same "type" of energy - Prana, but divided into five parts. This view is directly supported by Upanishadic sources. AFAIK there are no "elemental pranas".

Now, the elemental tattwas (that is the 5 grossest tattwas amongst the 36) all originate from mind and mind originate from prana (at least according to Chhandogya Upanishad). Everything is saturated in the pranic field. In a way, this universal field of Prana - Mahaprana can be understood as Shakti, but it is my belief that the Goddess is even more than that.

This whole world - whatever there is - vibrates having

originated from prana.

Katopanishad

We can indeed divide pranic currents further, if we take into the account the triple gunas as Prana is present in the body in it's sattvic, rajasic and tamasic state.

Of course Prana is far from being only an individual force, it is universal and governs all creation. The cosmic aspect of Prana can be represented as Goddess Kundalini in human body. On the other hand Prana can also be also represented, perhaps both in the macro and microcosmic aspect as Prana Shakti.

In prana all moveable and immoveable beings merge

(during dissolution) and rise out of prana (during creation).

Chhandogya Upanishad

>How does the western idea of etheric body as distinct from astral body fit in with yoga? As I understand they are bundeled together in yoga as the pranamaya kosha

This is correct as far as my knowledge goes, and the etheric body is just the grossest level of pranamaya kosha. Pranamaya kosha is made of prana and is the "energy body" that is spoken of in Western systems, with nadis, chakras and Kundalini.

Verily, besides this physical body, which is made of the

essence of the food, there is another, inner self comprised

of vital energy by which this physical self is filled. Just as

the fleshly body is in the form of a person, accordingly this

vital self is in the shape of a person.

Taittiriya Upanishad

Now, I was always more concerned with practice rather than with theory, and I admit that I am not an expert on Vedanta and thus I haven't studied much of the subject, but I always wondered at the apparent contradiction - Prana as something that emerged from the pure consciousness as described in Upanishads and Prana just as "vital energy" being located in between physical and mental body. One text I read stated that all the koshas are saturated with prana and that prana works on all levels, so that would support the view of Prana as some sort of primal energy, first vibration and manifestation of the "active Brahman", but I haven't given it too much thought and research yet, so I'm confident that the answer will be revealed to me soon. If anyone has any thoughts on this I'd be grateful for sharing. For now it is not relevant to the matter at hand I think - the connection between etheric body and pranamaya kosha.

>the point where the physical touches the astral; this point can be considered it's own integral level of existance, but - why? Is there a real point to this?

I think that the reason is based not on theoretical grounds, but stems from purely practical reason and exists as to allow for an easier categorization of experiences, to differentiate between etheric projection (that is leaving your physical body but still exploring only the planes closest to the physical) and projection into higher astral planes.

I've also heard that etheric body is able to interact with physical matter and thus allowing for augmenting your attacks in certain martial arts for example.

But yeah, it's all semantics really. People in one philosophy brought etheric and astral body under one label as pranic body because of their similarities (and the fact that they are both subtler than the physical body yet they are not mental body) while the other philosophy focused on their experimental differences and coined some other terminology.

>>11438

Thank you for you in-depth answer!

>AFAIK there are no "elemental pranas"

I am under the impression that different parts of the body are under the influence of different elements; head and nervous system corresponding to fire, organs of speech and lungs to air, stomach and sex (though this is debatable) to water, and legs to earth; and thus it seems congruent to think that the prana that sustains each part is similar - governed by the same element. Yet as you say - different philosophies categorize things differently. I personally find the four classical elements perfect as a meta-structure (positive-negative-neutral-whole) for categorization, and my knowledge of yoga is very superficial despite having practiced for years. I'm a practical kinda guy when it comes to the occult - hence the question and confusion.

>I think that the reason is based not on theoretical grounds, but stems from purely practical reason and exists as to allow for an easier categorization of experiences, to differentiate between etheric projection (that is leaving your physical body but still exploring only the planes closest to the physical) and projection into higher astral planes.

I would tend to agree - yet my experience with etheric projection is next to none. I have some experience with lucid dreaming and astral projection, but it still leaves me to wonder whether there are actually TWO distinct usable bodies "hidden" within the physical one. Many theosophists and even Crowley seemed to think there is only one subtle body, and it's up to the practicioner to hone their skills to be able to "rise in the planes", to get out of the proximity of physical earth and into the astral. This is a vague thought, but here goes - could it be that there indeed are distinct "layers" to the astral body, corresponding to the elements, of which the "astral earth" would equal to "etheric", whereas "astral water" would be the world of emotion - astral proper; "astral air" again something more finer, consisting of intellectually inclined emotion (inspiration, joy of discovery etc), and the "astral fire" would be the generative power as such - kundalini in yoga; the power of imagination; creativity directed towards form?

I'm just thinking out loud here… Yet it would make some sense, no? More experienced practicioners are invited to comment.

>>11449

>I am under the impression that different parts of the body are under the influence of different elements

Yes, but that doesn't correlate with pranas - for example Vyana is diffused throughout the whole body and doesn't have a limited sphere of influence the same as Prana and Apana.

>head and nervous system corresponding to fire, organs of speech and lungs to air,

I get it that you use some different system of classification, as you yourself admitted, but just for the sake of keeping things in accord with Tantra and Yoga, I will just say that your correspondences are not the "yogic correspondences".

The 5 grossest tattwas are, from subtlest to the grossest: Akasha, Vayu (Air), Tejas (Fire), Apas (Water), Prithvi (Earth). Also, their places in the body is as given: Akasha on the top of the head, forehead, generally above eyebrows; between eyebrows and chest - Vayu; chest and belly - Tejas; from hips to knees - Apas and from knees to the feet - Prithvi. The same placement is used in the rites of the purification of the elements if one doesn't place tattwas in the chakras but prefers to place them in the whole body. The subject of tattwas is very vast and their meanings are not always intuitive for someone who is used to the West system and correspondences therein. I myself prefer the Tantric (and Yogic, but it came down to Yoga from Tantra) system.

But well, to each his own, not saying that any one system is better than the other, just presenting information as we are posting in yoga thread.

>but it still leaves me to wonder whether there are actually TWO distinct usable bodies "hidden" within the physical one

Oh, no, I don't think there are. I think that whether you have an "etheric" or "astral" type of experience depends on you perception and awareness ("vibrating higher/lower" meme).

>This is a vague thought, but here goes - could it be that there indeed are distinct "layers" to the astral body, corresponding to the elements

I never gave it much thought, but in Yoga you have subtler elements (tanmatras) but they are corresponding with certain qualities and senses and not to the planes of pranamaya kosha as such.

>"astral earth" would equal to "etheric", whereas "astral water" would be the world of emotion - astral proper; "astral air" again something more finer, consisting of intellectually inclined emotion (inspiration, joy of discovery etc), and the "astral fire" would be the generative power as such - kundalini in yoga; the power of imagination; creativity directed towards form?

As I said - I don't use said correspondences and the elements mean something different to me, so I can't really comment on that. Kundalini is indeed fiery, but She is not connected solely to the one element - Fire, She is a manifestation of universal Prana in human body, so that part doesn't fit in, but it is perhaps because you mixed two different systems.

I also don't want to put your idea down, but there are planes dedicated to each element in the astral, inhabited by the elementals, at least from what my friend told me and from what I've gathered from studying Hermetics and other Western magics. So you say that the "astral water" would be the astral proper, but then again you have earth, and fire and air in your "astral water" then.

>>11466

>I also don't want to put your idea down, but there are planes dedicated to each element in the astral, inhabited by the elementals, at least from what my friend told me and from what I've gathered from studying Hermetics and other Western magics. So you say that the "astral water" would be the astral proper, but then again you have earth, and fire and air in your "astral water" then.

The elements can be used to categorize anything and everyhing, all we do is divide things created by the elements into elements so we can understand the products of the elements through the elements. Sup dawg, I heard you liked elements…

In such a way, it's perfectly acceptable to divide the water element even in it's purest form into four elements to understand what constitutes it. To understand how it arises (fire), how it operates (air), how life emerges from it (water) and how it can manifest (earth) and many other things analogous to these elements.

While elements are real powers that have real effects in the mental, astral and physical planes, they opperate in accordance with their laws too, so in a sense, they are also principles which govern each manifestation and since all things manifestedd have been done so by the powers of the elements, the elements themselves opperate through the elemental principles. So all things that exist, still have within them four elements, otherwise, it would simply not exist, the elements always function together at all times.

This means that manifestations categorized as "watery" or operating in regards to the water element, only means that the dominant elments within it is water, it doesn't exclude the other four, otherwise, it wouldn't be a thing in the first place.

And as for the whole etheric and astral, these distinctions are just words, the differences between "etheric projections" and "astral projections" depend on their level of manifestation. which isn't that far of a thing.

Taoism has a very very useful classification of the various types of astral body manifestation. From all the schools, I'd say taoism best describes matters of transmuting the body through energy and attainments of various powers as a result from cultivating the astral/energy body and physical body as their whole way of cultivation is to purify and transmute their energy bodies and become a taoist immortal through mastery of their astral/energy body.

As such, they classify various stages of "astral projection".

The Yin Shen body and the Yang Shen body. And within these two categories there are various levels of attainment. Most if not all of what the western terms "astral projection", "OBE's", "etheric projection" and "soul travel" belong to the Yin Shen body type of projections.

The distinction lies in that the yin shen body is an energy body that is latent and naturally occurs, making achievements related to it much easier then it's counter part, the yang shen body. This yang shen body, can only arise when all of the elements of the astral/energy body have been transmuted. That means, there can be no yang shen projection if one hasn't transmuted his jing to qi and his qi to shen (in yogic terms that would be one who has been successful in the practice of pranayama and has observed bramachaya), awoken the prenatal qi (kundalini) of the body AND cultivated/trained the yang shen body (which comes with it's whole set of instructions, neat things and pitfalls). While the Yin shen body is natural and latent in all, the yang shen body types of projections only arise when you have rigorously andthoroughly cultivated them.

The yin shen body is totally immaterial, even though it may limitedly interact with the physical and even lead to apparent telekinesis in it's higher form. The body from which the projection is made, the physical body is put into a yin consciousness of sleep, it breathes, needs to eat, is awoken easily and can be also distracted easily,… While the yang shen body can be made material, or immaterial at the discretion of it's user and when projected, the physical body is put into a yang state of samadhi. This means that one who has attained the yang shen body can not only manifest physically during his wanderings, but his body is put into a deep state of samadhi, thus his physical body will not breathe, and he will look like he is dead to the outer world, however, his body will never deteriorate and even if he comes back centuries later, he will find his body just as he has left it. Thereby achieving taoist immortality.

All of this is just to show that there is a WHOLE LOT of complexity and things to achieve in these matters and also that all schools talk of the same things with various levels of depth to the subjects. Yoga doesn't really give methods of astral projection, as through the success in it's practice, it is extremely easy for the students to develop these abbilities to the same level as taoist immortals themselves. There are many reporst of yogis talking about these achievements and the worlds they have visited, the bilocation phenomenon they have brought upon,… Some other schools don't talk of many other things either and yet are still extremely valid and much more detailed in other regards. Zen doesn't talk of energy cultivation but through it's methods, it becomes extremely easy for the student to cultivate properly and intuitively by himself. All schools aim to create self sufficient spiritual individuals. Yet, the saints and the buddhas of all schools have a path of their own to still walk on, there is no end either.

All in all, while both the etheric body and the astral body and the pranic body are the same, depending on the context, they talk of deeper and more profound atainment. Same goes for the relationship between the tattwas, the elements, the taoist 5 elements that include wood and metal (dafuk?), the skhandas,…

They all talk of the same things, but in a different context, and adress themselves to people with different levels of achievement in specific matters. The 5 taoist elements make a LOT of sense when used to diagnose physical issues. They get a bit awkward when it's time to talk of astral or mental matters, the skhandas are amaizing for the mental, a bit more awkward on the physical, the tattwas do an awesome job describing astral things, while they fall short of the subtler mental issues. Yet, they are the same subject, and they all are solving a problem in different ways, which is why sometimes, the correspondances can get a tidbit hazy. When discussing different sytems, It's always importat to know what the system was made for, who it was made for and what level of achievement is talked here, in addition to the planes it is talking of and the powers at use.

When lucid dreaming, does the pranayama kosha separata to some degree from annamaya kosha along with the more subtle koshas and atma as well? Is there something akin to the silver chord of western magic in yoga, a principle that connets the annamaya kosha and pranamaya kosha? Is the method of entrance significant to what kosha or part of the whole predominates - is it a different thing to A. Have an OBE and tangibly operate in a double image of the physical body in it's proximity, and B. To willingly "step in and inhabitate" a mental image that becomes a lucid dream with astral sensation and C. To become lucid in the middle of the dream after falling asleep normally?

>>11489

>>11466

Beautifully informative posts. Multas gratias ago vobis.

>>11522

As far as I know, yoga rarely talks of lucid dreaming and astral projection, they also don't take the time to study what happens during these things as they find it a waste of time.

In the patanjali sutras, it's clearly said that proper practice of raja yoga can lead to various samadhis and various siddhis, astral projection being one of the ones listed. Many upanishads also warn the saddhakas as to not be concerned with the many unusual things that may happen during practice.

And from a taoist perspective, all those listed are yin shen attainments, and thus only categorized for students to know that while they may be similar to the higher yang shen bodies, they are not them. That's from the point of view of "orthodox" taoism.

Yet, there is a whole lineage of dream yoga in taoism that focuses on lucid dreaming and yin shen cultivation. Their teachings are hard to come by though as the instructions were only made through a master-student relationship and for the students not capable enough to cultivate the yang shen body but virtuous enough not to abuse and be unbalanced by using the yin shen body. This was done in the rationale that properly cultivating the yin shen body could eliminate the fear of death, which can help to have more favorable incarnations, and enable their further incarnations to cultivate the yang shen body and go further along the path.

When I say abuse, it's important to note that while it is moral injunction, it's also a very practical one. Many times in the teachings of the various immortal sages, it's said that people who attach to the yin shen body attainments can progressivey loose their will to function on earth and as such, this can lead to being reborn as a "hungry ghosts". Or, in the terms commonly used here, loosh farming entities.

As in all spiritual matters, unbalanced and one sided cultivation can have serious consequences.

>>4016

awesome, thanks!

When lucifer realizes he has always been the abyss, he is burned to nothingness by it. But did anything really happen if he never stopped being abyss in the first place?

That sweet loving true abyss.

Omnipotent, essence of knowing itself, abyss.

All my youthful love was only a reflection of my love for you, abyss.

My awe at the beauty of god was the radiating warmth of you, abyss.

The day I realized I had been you all along, and that you were me, I died truly, abyss.

I died to the world I created to know us, abyss.

If you have everything, what could you want, besides ignorance?

>>4368

I don't think you ever posted your email. I too am trying to get into yoga, to discipline the body. Do I have to have a teacher? If so how do I find a good one? Are there good introductory texts anywhere?

Hurry up and get to the semen drinking already!

>>11998

It's in the 9th post up there, but here it is: zimmer101@icloud.com feel free to shoot me a line.

>>12001

Sorry, no semen drinking!

>>11998

I forgot I didn't answer your questions! If you're only looking to discipline the body, following a simple asana routine with basic pranayama can do a lot! For those basics I would recommend a teacher, but its not impossible to practice on your own if you're smart and careful.

A good introductory text? For disciplining the body, maybe a book by Iyengar "Light on pranayama" is a good place to start. Along with some simple asanas, like these: http://www.sivananda.org/teachings/asana/12-basic-asanas.html

You can be a fully realized being endowed with self-knowledge, understanding phenomenal experience to be unreal.. And still love someone, still share life with a soul mate.

Once you understand that there is no "I" or "you", either be with another, or be by yourself.. What could it matter to you? who is of the nature of undivided, infinite, love, knowledge.. The absolute.

There's work that must be done within yourself, you have to let go of your attachments.. But that doesn't necessarily mean you can't live a "normal human life", it might not be the same as when you couldn't see past the division of ego and objective experience, but self-realization never means sadness or loss. Those emotions are due to being convinced of this dreams solidity and persistence.

See, the self can't be called "one" being or something that's "alone". Those two concepts only exist in something that has space around it. Self/Undivided consciousness is all pervading, infinite, without boundaries, there isn't anything other than "that". It's substance is of pure awareness. The entire cosmos comes into being and is dissolved in a split second of this 'self' forgetting its nature and imagining moving forms within it. How can there be loneliness, or one and another?

Self=Abyss=Undifferentiated consciousness

The simplest way I could explain what infinite undifferentiated consciousness is, is that it's the substratum (and source of) the reality we experience, its also the self (stripped of thought, division, and sense of "i").

Self and reality describe the same thing. Through the practice of different systems of self knowledge, you can get moments of experiencing this state. Once certain procedures are performed through self-effort (and if its the appropriate time), its possible to bring this undivided consciousness into present awareness permanently, this also coincides with the balancing of female and male polarities and raising the creative energy up the spine to settle it in the top of the head.

All of these events- A change in awareness, the stilling and balancing of energies, and self realization are all intertwined and interdependent.

This is a painting I did the other day!

The reality we experience is an imaginary tree, whose seed is the self. Everything you see is made of consciousness, that you're not any different from. The phenomenal experience can't be fully understood by using the senses. By going backward into the self, you benefit and understand the world outside. You still perform things in life, just with a fuller understanding of what this world is.

Everything in our modern culture wants us to believe the answers to the fundamental questions in the universe are found either in space, or in the smallest scales of reality. The most important thing we can study if we want real answers, is the observer itself, the self. The self doesn't die, isn't born, can't be identified with the thoughts or senses, and in a way it contains everything else you could see or not see.

When we study our self, its not a study of our emotions, thoughts, or anything that has to do with our individual sense of "i". We study what we're made of, and where everything in creation came from, these two questions have the same answer.

And as for how self knowledge could benefit society? It would be the only true benefit. So many problems we face in the world are due to the fact the humanity on average is totally ignorant of our origins, the nature of consciousness, and what reality even is. You can't expect people to live out balanced lives if they don't even have proper knowledge of themselves. This is the type of information that's kept out of the public spotlight, our culture feeds off of ignorance.

What I experienced, I usually can't explain it. Not because I can't find the words, or because its a secret. But because most people wouldn't want to hear it. Without self-knowledge, people define themselves by their relations to others, their emotions, thoughts, what they do in the world. To tell them the nature of what their experiencing before they're ready, can cause a lot of negative feelings. There's nothing wrong with creation, the lives we lead. The people we love, the experiences we cherish, there's nothing bad about it. But some people start to understand after so many rounds of living, that things don't exist the way we'd like to think. That our joy and our sorrow is either a dream or a nightmare, we're never actually involved.

I always say that liberation isn't about denying the world, but understanding what it is. Letting go of the limitations we've created for ourselves. These limitations (the thought "I am" or "This/They are") are what allow us to experience the diversity that we call "life". It's great, there's a reason why you'd want this, but all the possible universes, they're less than a sliver of what we are. People like stories, movies, books, etc.. But you would never give up your life for fiction, its just a temporary, harmless story. The greatest one ever told, so engrossing that you can forget you exist outside of the pages.

The world is the way it is, because the information I'm a custodian of is kept under the rug. People believe in the material. Its why killing for imaginary sections of "space" is deemed appropriate by our so called leaders. It's why differences in physical appearance are taken as indicators of "us and them". The golden ages of humanity were times when this information was widely known.

>>12036

>Everything you see is made of consciousness

>that you are no different from

Yes, everything is consciousness.

No, that does not mean there is no difference. In fact, the most similar being to a human, another human, is far more different that appearances would make. Similarity and unity is an illusion created by the mind to understand.

Unity Consciousness is composed of overlapping transjective realitys that vary in differences to the maximum extent possible. From where I sit, your post is somewhat understandable - to most humans, it is gibberish.

Difference in appearance is difference in consciousness. Difference in consciousness is irreconcable except in the unusual exceptional case.

You do not understand what I write, you merely interpret it into your own view. Same for me reading your posts. I am not you; we are not one; unity is multiplicity.

>>12150

Everything you see is consciousness.

You are that consciousness. The differences you experience are a result of illusory division.

>>12374

Illusion can not exist in your world view. Only understanding and knowing. You can not overwrite the shortcomings of your perspective. Give a meaningful answer to multiplicity and differences, that explains the primacy of differences, division, individuality, sovereignty, separation and multiplicity or rest in unified ignorance.

Best to divide ignorance, to conquer it, not unify it and make it stronger.

You cannot dismiss reality as illusion, as you must make the claim of its prima nature, as your views claim "…that all is unity and perfection and blah blah blah we are real and really one universal being except I have to tell you this for you to figure it out so you're actually creating a meaningful separation that I have to overcome but ignore that plox ty" explain away existence while you're at it.

You're just SELF-OBSESSED, so focused on the body you start to believe it's Operating System of "we are one, so don't sabotage anything you dumb cells" and now you have a constipated ideology. You're pretending to be a cell in a body.

I've actually experienced most of what you're saying as fucking truth and I know it's just the fucking body running it's programming. So I know exactly what you're saying; you lack meaningful distinctions and dichotomy, no contrast.

That's what I think.

>>12375

The body has nothing to do with self.

You're just an arrogant idiot using thought to refute something that doesn't agree with your sensibilities.

>>12377

The body has everything to do with self. You used it to discover your philosophy, for one. Yoga is all about body harmony and intraflowing, clearing meridians and harmonizing energy patterns for a better working system. Why use the body if it means and does nothing for your self? Then it must have something to do with it.

I don't know the specific methods by which yoga works but it works. Energy flows and everything is clearer, more vibrant and full of life. I have thought, explored, experienced much of what your philosophy is talking about and it made the entire universe and planet and myself feel very small and everything very insignificant, because division in a world view without division becomes meaningless and thus life is meaningless. My thoughts are though that you are so qi healthy and full of yogi happy juice that it just doesn't matter to you anymore.

Beyond the body is another matter however. As in, literally different matter. The bodies that compose the world are not mirror to your own, from other humans to other species to planets to solar systems to galaxies and etc. Other human consciousness does not share in your consciousness, because if they did they would agree with you.

I have shared in unity consciousness, understood it in and out, believed in it, was one with God and God was I but I was just a drop in the bucket and every other I were as well drops but we were all glorious drops of God and part of each other like cells in a cosmic body, then I decided it was complete and utter bogus and that I was an idiot for believing it. I realized it was fairy tells supported by real fring science and mechanics in a great theatre I played with myself. Separation is where it's at. Multiplicity over Unity. Let go of your own illusionist tricks.

All in all I trust the reliability of critical thinking, analysis, logic, intelligence and an open mind coupled with intuition and a sense of aesthetic for detecting what I'm missing.

Maybe you should use your own thoughts instead of other's. You are a student of traditional yogis mysticism and should recognize your own cognitive bias as a student of a teacher. I understand that all things are often a practical matter, by oscillating between completely impractical and practical, completely mystical and material. Some biases are just greater and actually prevalent whereas others are fictional, it's like natural selection but for universal laws and lore and what have you. No matter WHAT cycle we're in, the universe is biased in one direction in all of them. Multiplicity and division, clear separation and boundaries seem to be the winner. It's the direction of expansion. Unity is a 0 dimensional point [ . ] and we have infinitely infinite separate points. Imagine that. Lines win. Then surfaces win. Then shapes win. Infinite differentiation means way more separation than there is unity. If my body vibrated the universe I would probably destroy some Fibonacci ratio amount of it or some nuclear shit… As in bye bye visible universe and beyond for however mega radi. That's my guess as to what true unity my actually do:destroy the universe.

Facts should first base themselves in the obvious and limit themselves to what is provable, so we can get a close workable definition of the truth. It is obvious and provable that conjecture on anything unobvious and unprovable is often bogus or heavily distorted or watered down or its truth is separate from the obvious and provable conversation or conjecture about it and is manipulative in its reproduction (as lies often conveniently disappear when needed to to survive and reappear when safe, while true things such as gravity never do) like a virus or parasite camouflaging itself to not be ousted and destroyed by those who appreciate the very real existence rather than fictional ones.

Beyond the lie conversation, living things hide and sneak and camouflage, but they aren't one with everything they're just trying to survive and reproduce and whatever else without regard for inconsequential and irrelevant truths, mystical or scientific, with my point being that many things do not exist for truth, beyond "it works and has worked and will work to my or my groups or my ecosystems benefit" in which case the practical benefits of your philosophy are it's only real measure of whether it is "true" or not, and I have experienced them every which way I can and can find only more harm than benefit for me and most anyone I could imagine, unless merely for its merit as poetry and aesthetics, to be ingested then mostly forgotten.

>>12377

Don't know why you mentioned the last part by the way, every disagreement worth its salt requires both confrontation, thought, and refutation, of another's sensibilities by ones own.

But yeah it's mostly to.goad your goat to go off repeat reel, put down the dogma and be more involved in the exchange than "pick and choose what teaching I cite", which actually good teachers do always with their students: get them to understand what they don't agree with or comprehend and why their suspicions are correct, misguided and or wrong. Permutations vs mimicry. Understanding vs knowing.

>>11489

Yes but what vaguely or specifically is this "problem" that all these schools solve? I see amazing practical (implicit and explicit, subjective and objective) achievements in all of them yet I do not understand what the same problem they solve is, and why I do not often hear of another equally impressive school or teaching or whatever that directly contradicts or "left hand paths" it, so to speak. Only Lucifer shit, and that just sounds like bad news. Never hear of equally valid yet opposing forces very often.

My guess would be a "hero maker" that demands the renunciation of conflicting unheroics by others even if they're Tao or Zen or whatever, because they did not watch spider man and listen to Uncle Ben tell them, "With great power comes great responsibility (to act and serve)".

Watcha think. Ever even hear of a hero school/teachings/methods?

Just so you know, /fringe/ is a tiny part of what I put out there. I actually do write original things, and discuss these concepts with people in person. Not only do I use my own ideas, but I speak without writing a script or preparing beforehand.

I just don't have time to argue with you.

>>12397

Okay, sorry. I was hoping you would argue.

>>12382

>>12382

>Yes but what vaguely or specifically is this "problem" that all these schools solve?

They all try to figure out what is the reason and nature for existence, understand what it means to live accordingly with this reason and how the world and ourselves work. They provide ways for everyone to realize this by themselves too.

>and why I do not often hear of another equally impressive school or teaching or whatever that directly contradicts or "left hand paths" it

Thing is, they all come to the conclusion that there is a natural order of things. A natural order that tends towards life and regulates through death (to act and serve, as you mentioned). The dynamics of it being to grow, expand, enjoy and rest when needed.

By looking around them these guys came to the conclusion that this way governs all things, and that to go against it means to go against the whole universe itself. They see that all actions that spills the energy used to grow, missguides the logical conclusions coming from expansion, turns away from enjoyment and advance restlessly without balanced rest, leads to a short life and an abrupt end in all things.

Thus, they try to accord themselves to the way of all things. A left hand path to that would be to go against it, which has been attempted by many and is still done very frequently. And these attempts have always been of a short time frame and have all ended abruptly. Life and death work as a constant mechanism towards the regulation and improvement of the whole thing it seems. To act and serve, I really like the words you chose. They really do capture the function of death as being a process of service, a lesson and a logical consequence to something which is not yet adapted to act in the proper way.

>Ever even hear of a hero school/teachings/methods?

Been doing that since the earliest days of man, what do you think deities and religious figures are all about? In theory, it sounds appealing to have someone come in and tell you exactly what to do so that you become a hero too, but in practice, those guys all end up dead pretty quickly, last jew that did this was nailed to a cross and his teachings were corrupted. Turns out that the way is realized for one's self and the efforts towards attaining it can only come from one's self.