/fringe/ - Fringe

>>78316

You have no idea what you're talking about, and you just like talking about "memes" because you find it funny. Nothing you're saying is particularly interesting or worth nothing as it's common sense mixed with bullshit.

>>>/pol/

>>>/x/

>>78316

Is this a joke?

>>78318

Jumping to conclusions about things you don't know is a crime punishable by memes. But no, I am not joking. And what part of what I say is the 'common sense' and what part is the 'bullshit'? Clearly since you must be a seasoned wizard that knows firsthand all the wondrous arts of magic I lack with an elaborate understanding of how memes work and their connections with magic, you should be capable of explaining where I went wrong in my theory and why you in fact know better.

>>78320

Nope not joking. Have a free theoretical basis for meme magic on the house.

Well, of course everything is magick if you look at it from that perspective. What I mean is, meme magick? That must be like one of the most boring types of magick…

>>78333

It's just thoughtform and sigil magic mixed together into some internet culture garbage.

OP, you aren't looking at "memes", you're looking at thoughtforms and symbolism. Nobody will take what you say seriously when you call them "memes".

The only reason I'm posting this reply is because this thread is already made. If you want to do something REAL, drop the "meme magic" garbage and study the basics. You will learn much more than you will re-inventing the wheel (and calling it meme magic)

>>78334

There's a difference. Thoughtforms and symbolism are considered by the scientific community to be a complete joke. Memes in modern scholarly thought serve as the best empirical measurement of culture we have. Maybe this reinvents the wheel a bit and just perceives the same exact thing in a slightly different view and wording. But if that difference is the difference between being some idealistic magic practices only knowable to a few and being realistic memetic practices knowable to anyone, I'd take the latter any day of the week. At the very least it would give some form of mainstream credibility to magic all magic users have lacked.

But again, this is simply a hunch combined with my seasoned know-how of the nature of memes. And I'm not talking exclusively fucking retarded internet jokes; I'm talking about all memes as in trends, styles, genres, religions, beliefs, ideas, etc. (Although technically some of those are combinations of memes that would in a scholarly study of memes be referred to as memeplexes or sociotypes.) This is not simply a joke but a mainstream reinterpretation of magic that may be the magic community's best shot as starting to gain some scholarly leverage and actually becoming more interesting to others. And if people started studying meme magic, that would only lead to an increased interest in magic as a whole which benefits the fringe community.

What if the astral world and the spirit world are just different parts of the ideosphere? What if memes are literally those things you've been calling spirits and gods all along? What if from day one everyone has been perceiving magic in a light not quite as precise as memetics perceives it in? How can any of you, even the ones who can do ridiculous magic shit (which I have never experienced and am forced to not believe has occurred until I receive evidence otherwise) honestly say without a doubt you know for certain you've entered the spirit world and not just been traveling to various places in the ideosphere interacting with memes? That's the point: it's a different way of viewing things that gives some scholarly legitimacy for once and I think this is a good step in the direction of making magic great again. On the internet memes might be commonly used as a joke but in the scholarly world memes have some legitimacy as an anthropological study and even if it's somewhat debated as to how scholarly memes are it's better than nothing. #FeelTheMemes2016

Unless you guys don't care about everyone and just want to be elites in your own little worlds of transcendence nobody but you can enjoy in which case you got me, I'm a meme master plebian pandering our magical knowledge to the normies. I'm pretty fed up with trying my best on fringe's elite fancy magic people claim would take me an insufferable lifetime to master. So I'll promote my style of magic and if it's lower magic that's fine -it still by the very logic of you magic people giving me and others magic experience they can build upon in their next reincarnations. Maybe it's not grandiose enlightenment-level magic but you know, it's what I genuinely like and what me and others can actually fucking perform. If nothing else it gives a good starting place of understanding the nature of symbols, imaginary beings, intention, praise, influence, etc. And it makes me happy, so fuck the higher planes of magic if they wish to make things difficult I'll just take my sweet relaxed time enjoying my meme magic for as many lifetimes as it takes because requiring a lifetime devotion to magic that cannot be even observed or performed even after years of trying is unethical to ask of anyone.

>>78348

It's not good that what we know is accepted into modern science. Look at what /pol/ did it when it realized it had any sort of power. It created an egregore with the intent on killing people. To release this knowledge would be dangerous. A large part of occultism is that it's secret. Can you imagine if every person you saw when you walked down the street had such power but without the proper teaching that finding the truth yourself entails? You're supposed to learn on your journey to discovering the truth. If the truth gets passed out to every person, then you get a bunch of people who will half-ass it and never learn or use it selfishly. Notice how a lot of people who delve in easy magics like sigil magic tend to be harmful, negative people to be around? That's because they don't wish to know the truth. They just want results.

>I'm talking about all memes as in trends, styles, genres, religions, beliefs, ideas, etc

Yes, this is memetics as Dawkin (I think?) described. However, these are really just thoughtforms. Businesses become thoughtforms and gain energy from public attention. The Christian God exists from and is powered by public belief. This is what thoughtforms are. You create and power them them every time you think of something, and sometimes they gain enough power to start affecting things or even become sentient.

>What if memes are literally those things you've been calling spirits and gods all along?

Those are thoughtforms. It's thoughtforms all the way down, as everything is a thoughtform of The All/God.

>honestly say without a doubt you know for certain you've entered the spirit world and not just been traveling to various places in the ideosphere interacting with memes?

Because we enter the astral plane and interact with beings. Those beings, like us, are made of thought. I feel like we're using different wording for the same beliefs. Which was what I was saying in my post.

>I'm pretty fed up with trying my best on fringe's elite fancy magic people claim would take me an insufferable lifetime to master.

If it makes you feel any better, we're all amateurs here. The real wizards don't need to use the internet to communicate, or find their knowledge in stolen PDFs. I only give you shit because I want to help you. I want you to read the basics so you can understand what you're doing. I don't want you to do what instantly gives you results (meme magic and sigil magic), I want you to know what you're doing so you can become a better practitioner.

I could be putting too much importance into thoughtforms. If someone better educated could comment on what I'm saying, that'd be great.

>>78316

>Epyc Wyn

>Knowyourmeme

Fucking kill yourself man.

What distinction does a meme have from other information?

>>78316

>>78521

this is dumb

Have you read plato?

>>78984

Solid links. I'll do a more in-depth review of them later.

>>78983

Make your post into a poem

Read Plato. This is exactly what he talks about when discussing the realm of forms.

Memes are just thoughtforms. For the memes that eternally effect pretty much everything, those are called archetypes.

The 'ideosphere' is just the mental or astral realm. Basically it's the nonphysical realm, while this 'biosphere' is the physical realm, and everything here is just an imitation of the universal forms.

As others have mentioned this is pretty much what Plato's theory of forms refers to.

He says the these nonphysical forms and ideas are the most accurate reality. Basically this nonphysical realm is more real than the physical realm, and it is even what was referred to in the allegory of the caves.

>The objects that are seen, according to Plato, are not real, but literally mimic the real Forms. In the Allegory of the Cave expressed in Republic, the things that are ordinarily perceived in the world are characterized as shadows of the real things, which are not perceived directly. That which the observer understands when he views the world mimics the archetypes of the many types and properties (that is, of universals) of things observed.

An interesting analogy that I once heard is how the physical realm is like an operating system running on top of the realm of thoughts and ideas, not the other way around.

>>78316

Fabulous adventures in category errors and reification fallacies caused by autistic literalism, the thread.

>>82005

i like this.

>>78571

It takes on egregore qualities.

>>78316

I go by Anonymous on imageboards and have a terrible animosity towards both namefags and meme magic.

>All thoughts, ideas, and beliefs (transferred through non-genetic means) are memes

This is the whole problem with meme magicians: concluding that all thoughts conveyed must be memes and therefore memes are on the same level as thoughts. The idea of 'thoughts shape your reality' becomes 'memes shape your reality'.

Seeing no difference between thoughts and memes is not helpful in the slightest:

- Memes are cultural ideas or certain types of behavior designed to be passed around by persons. Both genes and memes have in their very essence the obligation to be passed on to another being, while thoughts do not. Self-contemplation with memes is not possible since memes can only be sent.

- Memes, just like sigils, thoughtforms, tulpa's etc. owe their existence to the mind, not the other way around. A meme can only convey a single meaning while the mind can produce any meme it wants to.

You're going at it in the wrong direction!

Magic is the basis for this world, while memes are mere offshoots of this world. Magic has existed since time immemorial, while memes are only a recent phenomenon from the information age when ideas could be spread en masse.

>Those who can manipulate the ideosphere within the biosphere most fluently are who I believe to be the most truly magical.

Magic is not only about manipulation, it is more so about understanding; understanding the laws of nature, understanding the mind and changing the mind within.

Of course, meme magicians can not look any further because their means of doing magic equates only to manipulation of the public mind through smug frog images. Their memes can only convey meaning so that's what meme magicians do: they try to force their meanings on others.

(disregard my antipathy for memefags)

>If the ideosphere exists, I suspect it may literally be heaven. When we die, our thoughts and beliefs may live on collectively as what we call a soul.

This is sort of true, but you have a very narrow definition of ideosphere. It is not some meme world originating from the minds of people, it is both people and memes that originated from the mind.

>>78348

>There's a difference. Thoughtforms and symbolism are considered by the scientific community to be a complete joke. Memes in modern scholarly thought serve as the best empirical measurement of culture we have.

The reason thoughtforms and symbolism are dismissed is because they have no physical counterpart, whereas memes can be perceived with human eyes.

Yeah, also:

>I'm pretty fed up with trying my best on fringe's elite fancy magic people claim would take me an insufferable lifetime to master

I'm also fed up with you ranting about ethics and fringe masters, while they continue to invest time in you. Do you know what a pain in the ass you can be? Get it in your thick skull that true understanding does not come from the internet or memes (which you have also tried to do)

>>82167

Do you know what archetypes are? That's what he's referring to when he says memes. But even so self-contemplation is possible with any sort of memes, literally anything can be contemplated so why would you say that?

And isn't understanding something just a manipulation of logic and concepts in the mental sense?

>It is not some meme world originating from the minds of people, it is both people and memes that originated from the mind.

>not some meme world originating from the minds of people

>is both people and memes that originated from the mind.

>not originating from minds

>is originated from the mind.

You're literally contradicting yourself.

so yea you're really just arguing semantics to say the least. or maybe projecting your antipathy for memefags over everything you read. you ask to disregard the anitpathy but that could mean disregarding your whole post

>>82168

>Do you know what archetypes are? That's what he's referring to when he says memes.

Then why doesn't he say archetypes? Memes do not have some vague fluid meaning, memes have a clear definition:

an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture

The second part of that definition is what differentiates a meme from any other thought: a meme is spread (within a culture). Therefore, memes cannot be used as a method of self-contemplation, because they will cease to be memes since they are not passed on! You can think about memes, but those thoughts are not memes themselves.

And please, don't answer for another poster. How would you know what Quapurgate's meaning was unless you're samefagging?

>Understanding is manipulation of logic

Manipulation:

controlling someone or something to your own advantage, often unfairly or dishonestly

So no, it's not manipulation if you don't bow anything to your advantage.

>You're literally contradicting yourself.

I understand how that is contradictory. What I meant to say is that Quapurgate's ideosphere and my idea are different in the order of origin.

- Quapurgate's ideosphere is probably formed by thoughts, beliefs and memes of living beings in the universe. It seems a separate world and it depends on people thinking about certain ideas.

- My understanding of the ideosphere is the ever-present possibility of (mental) formation, from which everything derives its existence. It does not depend on the universe in a physical sense, yet physical people depend on it to secure their existence.

Arguing semantics is important, you cannot go around spouting 'that's what the word meme REALLY means!'.

The thing I don't like about meme magicians is their constant need to validate their magic, 20 threads about kek on /pol/, false definitions of memes and dragging everything down to the level of memes.

While all memes are thoughts, not all thoughts are memes, how hard can it be?

I think I've raised some objective arguments, even if I'm not impartial.

>>82172

>Memes do not have some vague fluid meaning, memes have a clear definition:

>an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture

Actually meme's and archetypes both have loose definitions that can be considered to be the same

"a recurrent symbol or motif in literature, art, or mythology."

Sounds the same to me

I mean the difference matters when the words are being used in context. Sure one word is more suitable than the other, but then you are just arguing semantics like I said.

Plus the memes you are thinking of are like a lower form of archetypes anyways. If archetypes are the eternal forms that physicality attempts to imitate, then memes are just an intermediate nonphysical phenomena that also imitates archetypes. And if you call on the memes for meme magick or whatever, really you are calling on the underlying archetype embedded in the meme. Whether it's a meme or archetype doesn't really make a difference.

And you're going on and on about that contemplation thing. OP never even talked about that!

About the manipulation thing, again you are arguing semantics. As an example, it's not improper to say that I am manipulating my arms and legs to walk around.

About the ideoshpere, from what I read it seems like what you are talking about is the same as what OP is talking about.

>And please, don't answer for another poster. How would you know what Quapurgate's meaning was unless you're samefagging?

Sure I can't read what OP was thinking, but he explained himself thoroughly and I am just going on what I interpreted. I can LITERALLY say the same thing to you? How can you know what OP meant for you to be able to criticize it? Of course you are also going on form what you interpreted.

However, it seems you are being incredibly fallacious. You are arguing against strawman after strawman among other logical fallacies.

Arguing semantics is important when it's difficult to interpret something. But you are arguing semantics after already making your interpretation. If you really want to argue semantics them take a quotation of what OP said and refer to the possible meanings of words. This is ridiculous to do though because OP didn't make a single line, he's made paragraphs. To properly interpret it one would look at all the possible meanings of each sentence and find the common meanings to create the big picture that he is trying to show.

I don't mind debating what OP meant but you can't argue about things the OP never even talked about. You're the one who brought up this contemplation.

As for the use of the word manipulate, he clearly uses the word FLUENTLY. You don't control something to your own advantage FLUENTLY. That doesn't make sense. Fluency refers to the skillful use of language. So manipulation in this sense is manipulating words and ideas. Simply using ideas. Manipulate can mean use, it doesn't always mean abuse, certainly not when the word fluently is also being used.

This shitshow of arguing semantics is derailing the thread. If you want to do this, then keep it short. Use a quote and then proclaim what you think it means. Going on and on with your strawman arguements makes you look like a pretentious douchebag. As obvious as your lack of impartiality is for meme fags I don't even need to try to bring that up (especially since it's self admitted. You really aren't helping your case at all). Just being logical shows how you are misrepresenting what OP said.

>>82172

Plus. instead of just endlessly talking about how wrong op is, why not talk about what op could be right? Talking about how someone is wrong doesn't help anyone and just derails the thing.

Let's assume that you even become successful. Do you think the thread will die after we determine that OP was full of shit? No! We take what OP was wrong about, and discuss what is right instead.

Why don't we talk about what is right, right from the get go? This shitshow of going no OP meant this so that's why he was wrong is just absolutely retarded.

Why not give the benefit of the doubt and interpret towards what is right and then discuss what is right????????

I made this post. Why don't you read and respond to it?

>>82037

>>82037

Sure when I first made this post, I really wanted to point out how even OP was being pretentious. How he's just blowing something that's quite simple out of proportion. OP is not completely right but it doesn't matter! Instead of pointing fingers I recognize that OP is on the right track somewhat, and take what is true and simply it into something concise that is more easy to discuss. If you want, we can agree to drop this thread and make a new thread to discuss these things with a better OP (however I actually haven't finished analyzed everything OP said yet).

Especially since this thread is actually old as fuck and OP is probably long gone. Even if not, it's old news and we should productively talk towards what is true and getting over our initial reactions. If OP was a shill then he'd want everyone to ignore the truth and waste time reacting to the emotional drivel of how OP is right and everyone is wrong. Just ignore that shit FFS!

>>78316

>Theory: All Magic is Memes in the Ideosphere

It's not a "theory" dipshit, its most of continental philosophy. Search "linguistic structuralism"

I see the computer and internet as physical manifestations of humanities hivemind.

You could also say, telivison, books, movies, newspapers are the same thing.

But, with the internet there are no gate keepers.

You feed an idea into the internet, and if it becomes a meme this idea spreads all over the world, and anyone could do it.

If you are interested in meme's it also ties in when propaganda and marketing.

In the future memeitcs and hacking will be very important in the internet of things.

I have been postin on imagebaords since the rick roll days.

I have noticed a pattern in meme's.

1.You create a meme

2.you post it on the board

3.everyone hates it or ignores it

4.you keep spamming and spamming

5.eventually it becomes troll bait, contriarian, ironic.

6.the meme is accepted as normal

7.the meme expands beyond the image board to normies

8. the meme evolves or dies.

and another thing, memes are like sigiils, they are ideas, images, spread to the mind.

Corporate logos are like sigils too, you see the coca cola logo and it makes you want to drink soda.

okay, say you made a meme that all the people who study the occult have big dicks.

And you forced it and forced it, till eventually everyone in real life thought we had big dicks.

This is a manipulation of reality.

again, this ties in with propaganda and marketing also.

all these ideas, the occult, meme's. propaganda, marketing, psychology, art.

they all tie together

>>82214

>You're arguing semantics

And as I said, semantics cannot be simply ignored.

Archetype:

the original pattern or model from which all things of the same kind are copied or on which they are based; a model or first form; prototype.

Meme:

a cultural item that is transmitted by repetition and replication in a manner analogous to the biological transmission of genes.

a cultural item in the form of an image, video, phrase, etc., that is spread via the Internet and often altered in a creative or humorous way.

Source: dictionary.com

The word 'meme' and 'archetype' have different meanings. This is why a clear definition of the terms used is important in order to prevent future confusion.

The same with manipulation, I just provide the definition. OP's task is to get his definitions straight. Besides, the whole 'manipulation of the ideosphere makes one magical' is not entirely true in my opinion, as i have stated in one of the previous posts.

I know OP never talked about contemplation, I talked about it and how self-contemplation cannot be done via memes. It is true that I brought it up in order to respond to:

'All thoughts, ideas, and beliefs (transferred through non-genetic means) are memes'

It's in one of the previous posts.

How is that a strawman?

If you think the ideospere thing is a strawman, I just reacted on what I understand are his thoughts about the 'ideosphere'.

What are the points you don't agree with? Please make a point other than 'arguing semantics' or 'strawmanning' or anything else from the style of debating. I'm not the most rigid one, I will accept arguments if they make sense.

Furthermore, why should I adress points I think are correct? That's not the point of a discussion. Neither is claiming that OP is full of shit. He's onto something, but the whole meme garbage needs to be adressed.

Meme magic does work, for obvious reasons, but it isn't ALL of magic.

Memes are not the master key to understanding, and the late increase from /pol/ kekfags obscures this, which is quite sad for anyone interested in something different than memes.

OP is someone who stumbled upon /fringe/, and is genuinely interested in magic. And here, the only information he gets is this stupid internet trend with its loose definitions of meme.

Memes poison the well, and it needs to stop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore

>Egregore (also egregor) is an occult concept representing a "thoughtform" or "collective group mind", an autonomous psychic entity made up of, and influencing, the thoughts of a group of people. The symbiotic relationship between an egregore and its group has been compared to the more recent, non-occult concepts of the corporation (as a legal entity) and the meme.

>>78316

I'm happy you still frequent /fringe/ Epyc. I've been researching memetics as well, suprised to see you posting about it.

One question though, how do you plan on gaining a degree in memetics? Is this real?

can i fuck my mum if i meme the future hard enough?

>>86097

That's not even all that hard to do. In about 2 months time you could manifest it, all powered off of your lust alone. I would advise not going down that path though… you'll probably regret it. Just use your power to get a succubus or if you are actually worthy of it, a perfect 10/10 woman. If you aren't worthy, fix yourself, and make yourself a man to be envied.

If unlike me though you don't give a shit about ethics, you can seduce anyone, easily. At least I can.

>>86103

Go seduce yourself. This is about memes not your hanky panky "I will it really hard with deez nuts so it'll come true" majyyks. Real wizards fuck memes not moms.

As you can see on this board, a lot of spiritual seekers do not resonate with memes because the meme of a meme lacks the sphere of sacrum. Spiritual seekers are often sensitive poets and they like when the material has profound connotations. It's a shame, because the realm of magic follows the patterns of evolution. The only case when you shouldn't think of magic systems through the lens of evolution is when you consider the possibility that that evolution is a delusion just like the sense of smell or sight. And that evolution as we know it is just the shadow of the real thing. From our position we can only perceive the shadow, not the original. That is of course assuming there is an original and not an infinite amount of worlds reflected into one another with no original

>>82005

I agree.

>>82037

I don't know if I'd call it an "operating system", exactly. The shadow analysis seems more accurate, since the underlying world of vibrations is what's real, and what we perceive of it is just that which interacts with our physical sensory apparatus,

although we can learn to magnetize ourselves subatomically in order to sense other frequences and patterns.

>>82167

I agree, but meme magick has its place, too. Worked for Trump.

>>82167

>>78316

A lot of people here are getting hung up on hair splitting, but generally speaking you are correct, regardless of how many might emotionally contextualize the word "meme", memetics is a governing and influential force in the universe.

It's not something that exists solely in the material, but when you realize that projecting thoughts in the form of rituals, actions, thoughts and sigils creates a legitimate byproduct in the real world, you realize ultimately it is all the same thing.

People like to split hairs on the subject as I mentioned, but it is ultimately all memetics. And yes the place we are when we're not occupying physical bodies is a state in which memetics is simply an aspect of simply being.

Look up Terence Mckenna's experiences with DMT and the machine elves and the entities he's interacted with. The entities could linguistically create things within hyperspace in a matter that complies directly with the basic concept of memetics, it's just much more direct, literal and free flowing.

So you are generally correct, but the "ideosphere" you're describing is simply the "greater" higher dimensional reality we occupy when we're not in physical bodies.

>>78316

>But how alive and real is a meme?

On a physical level, memes are electromagnetic patterns. Hear me out

>Idea come to us, synapses firing electrical impulses to the brain

>brain fires electric signals to the muscles to draw/type based on the pattern in our imagination

>The electric pattern that was once our thought now exists as an electric pattern on a machine

>This pattern is transmitted to other machines

>users of these machines now have that pattern flashing in their synapses

>and etc etc

>>78329

With this post in mind, all you've done is arrive at the same conclusion most serious practitioners do. We have different, older words for what you're talking about, but it works all the same. The semantics are irrelevant. Nice job.