/fringe/ - Fringe

>>111869

>What's /fringe/'s opinion on the idea of Natural Perfection?

what's natural about nature? and what about nature is such a good thing? what is perfect about nature? we have to disect the meaning of what it means for something to be natural and what it means for something from nature to be good, and what it means for nature to be perfect.

>friendly dogs = good

>angry rabid dogs = bad

>strawberries are natural and they = good (if you're not allergic right?)

>asbestos and arsenic and lead are natural but they = bad

alot of things are context and situationally dependant. what is good for one person is not always good for another. even if you take this and say "I am an individual and I'm going to do what's right for me" that's fine as long as you're not going out of your way to hurt others, anyone can still encounter things like below in normal everyday life.

many things can come from nature, but many are good and many more are bad. so can anything about nature really be called "perfect"? what we consider to be natural is nothing but a construct that we force upon ourselves. we picture the peaceful beach with coconut trees and little birds flying about, until one shits on you and you go to rinse it off in the ocean and a shark eats you. would you call me a pessimist, or a realist? or would you call me an idealist who is simply being such a realist that I sound like a pessimist?

here's a fun watch. https://hooktube.com/watch?v=AftZshnP8fs

>The historic Buddha Gotama taught that we have inside of us, right here, right now, the Buddha nature. It is our innermost state of perfection

to put it simply and be as honest as possible, what is so special about the inside of a turd? did someone swallow their own gold tooth? humans are not perfect, and so our core is flawed. if our core is flawed and imperfect, we are not perfect.

>However the path he taught to find this Buddha-nature potentially involves lifetimes of intense discipline, living as an ascetic beggar-monk in the forest meditating all day. To me this sounds more like the act of conditioning something,

Yes, exactly. but it is the biggest mistake that you can make to believe that you as an imperfect human being can condition yourself towards perfection, even after thousands of years of practice. you will make more mistakes and things will still go wrong inside or outside of your control, or control you believed that you had.

>>111869

>rather than simply finding what we already have.

we aren't God you know. God didn't make us perfect. that's not our place here. what we have now is learning. we can only do our best, and it definitely is worth it trying our best to be our best. that's important and there's no reason to not do that, but believing that an imperfect human being can do unto themselves perfection is a joke for fools.

>Why don't you immediately see, right within your own mind, the true reality of your original nature?

Yes, but rather than believe that there is something perfect in the nature of a creature that is capable of anything that animals are and then some, like war, rape, murder, lying, and so on- it's important to accept and acknowledge the fact that first of all, we're not perfect. if we can accept that fact first, now we are no longer ignorant to the room that we do have to improve. But- to assume we will reach perfection through our own hands is silly. that's something only God can gift to people (no, I'm not talking about jesus or any other false idols)

>Because perfection is our innermost nature, and is implicit in all things and experiences, any act of striving towards a higher state is an act of delusion.

Whoa, now THAT is delusional. "we are all already perfect so don't try to improve- ever!"

>The afflictions themselves are bodhi, as they too are emanations of pure mind, and to try and conquer them is delusional.

"just accept everything the way that it is! don't try to change anything! bad goyim!"

>All that needs to be lost is the judging mind, that distinguishes between good and evil, sacred and profane, like and dislike-

"good and evil? pssh! don't mind that person raping and killing and stealing! totally normal! it's no big deal, don't be so judgemental! head down! eyes forward! back to work! no pay for overtime!"

don't fall for these lies!

>>111869

>Accepting ones afflictions with understanding and compassion seems like a roundabout, non-confrontational way of destroying them to me, but I'm sure it's superior than just trying to beat your lust/hatred/etc. into submission

that's like going to a hospital with a bad doctor. "hey doc my leg is broken!" doctor: "no it isn't, just ignore your non-broken leg! now GET OUT!"

>The Master on the other hand is the old man relaxing on a park bench nearby, his head back and eyes closed, enjoying the simple feeling of the sun on his skin. He has giving up all striving, and has relaxed into the innate perfection of existence.

Yea, bascially sitting around as a useless, mindless, careless fool who will never change anything in the long or short term.

>In your experience is our innermost being perfect? Is reality perfect? It sounds like most people here are applying a ton of effort trying to become anything else other than what they are right now.

So you do understand.

honestly just try to make life as nice as you can and try to be nice to people within reason, and don't worry about it too much. eventually life ends (hopefully of natural causes while sleeping as everyone hopes for as the best way to go) and then God takes you. God is perfect, and God is the only one who can take you to perfection.

I hope this helped.

hey I was thinking, if you want to give me some feedback on my thread it would be interested. (if you want)

>>111715

>>>/re/2282 (and my /rel/ thread) (same thread) but you don't have to reply to both obviously.

>>111876

it would be

*interesting

and I'm the person who posted all the replies before this one. (unless someone edited something without me knowing)

>>111872

>we aren't God you know

God is one of those slippery words that can mean a million different things. I'll tell you what I do know though, we are quite literally the universe itself. Not the entirety of course, but a part of it.

>God didn't make us perfect. that's not our place here. what we have now is learning. we can only do our best, and it definitely is worth it trying our best to be our best. that's important and there's no reason to not do that, but believing that an imperfect human being can do unto themselves perfection is a joke for fools

I'm not going to sit here and pretend to know the mind of any creator god, nor any supposed purpose this deity has entrusted us with. All I can truly trust and experience is the results of my own efforts.

>rather than believe that there is something perfect in the nature of a creature that is capable of anything that animals are and then some, like war, rape, murder, lying, and so on- it's important to accept and acknowledge the fact that first of all, we're not perfect. if we can accept that fact first, now we are no longer ignorant to the room that we do have to improve

First, what's wrong with war, rape, and murder? They force change into society, and force us to change as human beings. It's often the hard parts of life that result in the greatest transformations. Also, improve what? It strikes me as arrogant to believe in a God that personally crafted you, and then to think you can improve on the majesty of His creation.

>Whoa, now THAT is delusional. "we are all already perfect so don't try to improve- ever!"

>"just accept everything the way that it is! don't try to change anything! bad goyim!"

I'm sure the act of utter acceptance results in quite profound brain change on its own, much like how viewing ones lust as simply another emanation of the pure mind will inevitably result in the withering and death of that very lust. Acceptance of this "perfection" will result in great changes that I'm sure most people would view as positive.

>"good and evil? pssh! don't mind that person raping and killing and stealing! totally normal! it's no big deal, don't be so judgemental! head down! eyes forward! back to work! no pay for overtime!"

Raping, killing, and stealing are perfectly normal. Look at all of human society, everywhere, in all of history. Judge, but be aware your judgment isn't reality. Kill those who threaten you if you choose to do so and understand that truly nothing has been lost. Live with values, desires, and goals but don't be attached to them.

>that's like going to a hospital with a bad doctor. "hey doc my leg is broken!" doctor: "no it isn't, just ignore your non-broken leg! now GET OUT!"

I disagree. I think viewing the afflictions as just another emanation of pure mind and accepting them is destroying them, and a far more effective method than trying to force oneself into an unnatural mindset with sheer willpower. Try to force that lust away is still allowing it to influence and control your life, instead it's far superior to simply let it be and lose attachment to it.

>>111878

hold on, writing out a huge response

>>111882

here comes a huge reply, I'll check later or tommorrow or something. also, I try to be funny a bit (don't take it as me being too nasty)

>>111878

>About good now, good and bad are subjective judgments. Show me an example of a "good", or a "bad"

I'm not saying that grey areas don't exist but if someone gets sick with cancer and they didn't want cancer, it's a bad thing to them. like I said before, what's good for one person isn't good for another person.

>None of these things are good or bad, they simply are that they are, and they have their own place in the grand scheme of things. Rabies, arsenic, asbestos and so on are all detrimental to a humans health, and would kill a man, yes, however what is wrong with death exactly? You are going to die, I am going to die, everyone is going to die. This is a perfectly normal, routine part of physical existence. To view death as wrong is to believe that somehow "God" fucked things up.

there isn't anything wrong with death, but there is much wrong with suffering from a human perspective. God doesn't make mistakes and everything that happenes is intended by God. if I die right now I would be like "hey no problem, I'm with God" it's about being at peace with God. even though I know that God allows suffering to occur, I believe that God wants us to recognize that suffering is a bad thing because it is a quality of this imperfect reality and we are not supposed to like it here.

>A tranquil beach, and a vicious predator eviscerating some prey are both beautiful in their own way. You really can't see the miracle of a tremendous predator like a great white shark existing in the first place? It's a remarkable, infinitely intricate machine

beautiful to you, if those are the things you are okay with. if you actually like that and would like to be eaten by a shark because it's a normal thing you have been conditioned to accept I'm going to have to say you're stupid. not even as an insult, but nobody, even suicidal people want to go out that way. animals and microorganisms in this reality are locked in a never ending war of death destruction.

>animals born

>animals eat each other

>catch parasites

>get infections

>animals eat each other more

>more animals born

that isn't anything I would consider as tranquil or peacful. it's essentially hell.

>>111878

>I would lean towards pessimist. You seem to be stuck on the presence of suffering as some sort of indicator that reality is shit, that we are shit, and everything sucks except for some sort of external deity.

you said it yourself right? suffering is an indicator that reality is shit. Yes. if everything was good then we would actually feel good. I'm being honest with myself and others about the world around us. if an honest person realized that everything around them is bad and then said "everything around me is bad" they aren't a pessimist, they are telling the truth, they are being a realist.

I believe that as imperfect human beings living in an imperfect reality that it is our job to strive to improve ourselves while simultaneously understanding that we can't be perfect without God. we are meant to realize that only God which is perfect, is capable of saving us. the imperfect can't save the imperfect. only the perfect can save anything.

>The fundamental reality of a turd is the same as the fundamental reality of all other things, quarks, electrons, protons, nuclear power, or we could phrase it more esoterically and say "emptiness" or "shunyata" indicating the interconnectedness of the turd. For one example, turds are an essential part of the biosphere. That beautiful flower outside the window cannot exist without animals shitting and enriching the soil, and so on with other plants, and then all that live off those plants in turn. It's your mind that views poop as worthless or flawed in some way.

I'm using turd as an expression but I'm glad you took it that way because the conversation can also flow in a good direction as a result of me further explaining. anyway, I wouldn't eat a turd but I would eat a fruit or vegetable.

please tell me more about shunyata, it sound alot like the holographic universe theory. in my thread I mention something like this along with the difference between our reality and God:

>>111728

>heaven (real reality, also is God):

>real

>no bad limitation (freedom)

>eternal (outside of time and lasts forever)

>automatically perfect

>good

>home

>earth universe (hell simulation):

>fake

>limitation (everything is such a problem)

>temporary and temporal (time bound and doesn't last forever)

>intentionally flawed

>bad

>camp/boarding school

>>111878

>the spaces between atoms and the particles that hold atoms together are a huge amount of empty space. yet somehow we remain solid. the distance between the atoms inside us are massive. we are literally made up out of more empty space than we are of particles, because if you look deeper, even the particles that make up atoms are extremely far away from each other. you go deeper looking for more answers and see more empty space. It's a miracle that any solid matter including ourselves can even touch another object without going straight through it.

>why do you think that matrix means "womb?" why do you think apocalypse means "the lifting of the veil"? what do you think renaissance really means? "rebirth".

>we are in an artificial simulation womb reality and god is lifting the veil covering the vagina and we are all going through rebirth.

>Right and wrong are again, just ideas. So is perfection for that matter. The point is to free oneself from the cage of belief and labels, to live in the world but to understand the subjective nature of mental phenomena and not get ensnared by it.

"So is perfection", as opposed to what? you didn't clarify that. as for the rest of this sentence, it needs some actual context and substance or it contains almost no useful information.

>God is one of those slippery words that can mean a million different things. I'll tell you what I do know though, we are quite literally the universe itself. Not the entirety of course, but a part of it.

to me God isn't a slippery concept. to me God is home, freedom, origin, perfection, unlimited power and intelligence and love and wisdom and knowledge. God is everything good. I agree that we are made out of similar things as to what this reality is made out of but I wouldn't be surprised considering that in a videogame the avatar is made out of the same graphics as the surrounding dirt.

>I'm not going to sit here and pretend to know the mind of any creator god, nor any supposed purpose this deity has entrusted us with. All I can truly trust and experience is the results of my own efforts.

alot of religions call this faith, but then there's also this:

>>111730

it's a really really good read.

>>111878

>First, what's wrong with war, rape, and murder?

you're /leftypol/ aren't you? it's wrong for people, but in the end it's for God to decide.

>They force change into society, and force us to change as human beings.

yes, but that change isn't always good change.

>It's often the hard parts of life that result in the greatest transformations.

greatest as in biggest, but good or bad?

>Also, improve what? It strikes me as arrogant to believe in a God that personally crafted you, and then to think you can improve on the majesty of His creation.

did you not read a single sentence in my previous posts? it's all there waiting for you to read it. it's like you're intentionally misunderstanding what I'm saying.

>I'm sure the act of utter acceptance results in quite profound brain change on its own, much like how viewing ones lust as simply another emanation of the pure mind will inevitably result in the withering and death of that very lust. Acceptance of this "perfection" will result in great changes that I'm sure most people would view as positive.

lust? what?

>Raping, killing, and stealing are perfectly normal. Look at all of human society, everywhere, in all of history. Judge, but be aware your judgment isn't reality. Kill those who threaten you if you choose to do so and understand that truly nothing has been lost. Live with values, desires, and goals but don't be attached to them.

all the death and destruction and disease and suffering are normal themes of this reality but that doesn't mean that we should accept it as "good". God may have made us imperfect but God still gave us the ability to denounce evil and imperfection. we are meant to realize that bad things are bad and good things are good. there are grey areas but there are some true absolutes.

>>111878

>I disagree. I think viewing the afflictions as just another emanation of pure mind and accepting them is destroying them, and a far more effective method than trying to force oneself into an unnatural mindset with sheer willpower. Try to force that lust away is still allowing it to influence and control your life, instead it's far superior to simply let it be and lose attachment to it.

what lust? if you are willing to smell farts and ignore you are about to shit your pants, that doesn't stop you from shitting your pants. you can hold in the shit as tight as you want and you may succed only to die of septic shock because you chose to be completely ignorant to how full of shit you are, which is really really bad and not ever reccomended. yikes!

>Does it really matter? I know I'm getting nihilistic here, but does it truly matter in any capacity whatsoever if some guy decides to just chill for his whole life, detached from the world?

if an individual chooses to just sit on a couch doing nothing their whole entire life because it truly makes them happy, then nobody should really bother them too much.

>Besides, that's not at all what the idea of Natural Perfection implies. One can go wherever and do whatever, one is completely free to do as they will, for the idea of improving oneself, or improving upon creation is a false one.

as a human being, or anything else on earth you can try to improve yourself as much as you want, and God made you so that you would try, and you are supposed to try and be the best you can be, even though you're not going to become perfect as a result of your own efforts. believing that you as an imperfect human being can make yourself become perfect is foolish. improving yourself with the knowledge that you are only improving imperfection is wise and not an insult to God.

>>111878

<Ho! O Vajra Speech-Essence, listen! I, Samantabhadra, teach that by virtue of the first principle - that intrinsic gnosis is unborn and undying - there is not the slightest difference between a person who kills millions of sentient beings and one who practices the ten perfections (paramitas).

<O Vajra Speech! I, Samantabhadra, teach that by virtue of the second principle - that the nature of reality is unstructured - there is not the slightest difference between a person who is always meditating upon emptiness and one who has never even momentarily entertained the idea of emptiness.

<O Vajra Speech! I, Samantabhadra, teach that by virtue of the third principle - that gnosis is unconditioned - as to the completion of the accumulations of virtue and awareness there is not the slightest difference between a religious person who has performed countless conditional virtues and a psychopathic killer.

<O Vajra Speech! I, Samantabhadra, teach that by virtue of the fourth principle - that the nature of gnostic awareness is unmoving - as to the vision of the real nature of things there is not the slightest difference between a person whose body and language exhibits all the signs of understanding and one who has never cared even momentarily to listen or study the teaching or to think about it.

<O Vajra Speech! I, Samantabhadra, teach that by virtue of the fifth principle - that the nature of being is unborn and deathless - as to accessing realization there is not the slightest difference between a person experiencing the torment of hell and one experiencing the bliss of buddha.

<O Vajra Speech! I, Samantabhadra, teach that by virtue of the sixth principle - the immutability of gnosis - as to intuiting the natural condition there is not the slightest difference between a person who has restrained discriminatory mental functions and one who has a strong fixated ego.

<O Vajra Speech! I, Samantabhadra, teach that by virtue of the seventh principle - the intrinsicality of pure being - as to potential for fruition there is not the slightest difference between a person who performs all kinds of external offerings, uttering praise and prayers, and one who lives free of all religious activity.

<O Vajra Speech! A person who lives by these seven great self-sprung principles gains confidence thereby in effortless realization, conviction in the understanding of appearance as inseparable from the three gnostic dimensions and intuition that he or she is buddha.

summary: everyone is equally imperfect as created by God. just try your best

alot of religions call this faith, but then there's also this:

>>111730

it's a really really good read.

really reccomend you read this. it's really cool. I know I already mentioned it but I'm worried it will get lost in the ocean of other information.

>>111893

whoa, uhhh, I don't know why I == texted a bunch of that sentence cut from the other comment. whoops. anyways it still works.

>>111933

hey, just wanted to let you know that I saw your posts but I'm very busy at the moment and will be answering them probably in around 15 hours. okay?

>>111933

>Muh relativist subjectivity

Nice pepe wizard tho.

>>111946

this isn't the person (me) who was and is still having a conversation with you. just so you know. (still working on a reply but I'm still busy)

>>111954

Yeah, I figured. Different icon, different posting style.

It's an imageboard with plenty of others around hete. Hopefully more people jump in, I'd like to hear from some of the tantrabros.

>>111933

>Yes, and this is because good and bad are subjective ideas.

one persons subjective ideas are different than another persons subjective ideas. as is each individuals personal definition of "subjective" or "objective" "this isn't MY version of anarchy!"

>If all that happens, happens by the will of the Creator himself, and is as it should be, then isn't everything perfect just as it is?

YES, exactly but we are diving into really deep territory here. I'll try to explain the best I can but you might get a headache if it's your first time going around this bend of reality so to speak (hopefully I don't sound like a pretentious condescending dumbass)

in genesis (of the standard common bible)

>when God made the earth, the sun and the moon, and the stars and said "and it was good" it was not good for humanity, but good for the purpose God has for humanity.

>>111732

you see, it is perfect, but it's perfect for God, for what God wants FOR us. what God wants for us is a bit complicated.

I replied to your post here next to my other reply to your other post/comment in the post because it was very closely related

>If I am sitting right here, right now, because the Lord wills it so, and He has orchestrated the entire universe to place me here, and it all goes according solely to His will, then how am I imperfect again? It sounds like everything is running exactly as it should be.

<"everything that happenes is intended by God" - You

correct. I know it's difficult for anyone to wrap their head around, but we are designed to be perfectly imperfect. we get old, we get sick, we degrade, we suffer, just like everything else on earth we don't last forever. our reality and everything in it is a finely tuned machine of destiny that is humming along in exactly the way God intended. kind of like an expensive toaster from a cheap corporation that designed the toaster with built in obsolescence. not to insult the almighty or anything, just an example. the corporation made that toaster so that it would break down exactly the right moment in just the right way so that you would have to go buy another one later, making them more money. now of course, God doesn't care about money and God isn't scamming anyone obviously.

>>111933

>Obviously I don't want to be eaten by a shark, nor does anything else out there. All I'm saying is there's nothing inherently wrong with sharks eating things.

by that logic, is there anything inherently right or wrong about anything? where does your philosophy, your morals, or even your values even begin? is there anything inherently inherent of inherency? clearly you do care enough to not want to be eaten by a shark so it's highly likely that you already take the appropriate measures as is common in life to avoid being eaten by sharks like most other people who want to avoid being eaten by sharks. my question to you is, what is it that makes sharks eating things not inherently wrong (and by what generality and by what context?) and what makes being eaten by a shark a thing that you do not want to experience?

you have to think inside and outside and inbetween the box, as well as infront of and behind and above and below the box, and you also have to eat the box, and also throw the box away. then you will understand the minds of living things with more depth. (and other deep things) it's a deep dark depressing hole though so be warned.

I'm not one of those "as above so below" types, even though it sounds like I was saying something like that

>This never ending war is how the biosphere advances itself. With no competition we'd all still be single celled organisms.

only assuming that you assume that evolution happened and occurs exactly the way that modern mainstream AAA science tells everyone as their commonly accepted "certified" paradigm.

people who are publicly known are more likely to say things that support what they have already said in the past because they feel the need to hold on to their credibility. anyone who realizes something new, or that something that someone said in the past was actually wrong, the whole scientific community, or cult of scientists (not to be confused with scientology which I have no idea if they have connections with this if anything at all so don't be confused by this) suddenly make a pariah out of them and discredit them into oblivion and ruin their career. there are many cases of this happening. I'm not saying that evolution isn't true, but the current paradigm is absolutely wrong. as for the never ending biological race war of all the mosquitos and parasites and other creatures, I would like to just add that I think the earth is a giant heaping pile of poo. we are the bad neighborhood.

>>111933

>I was paraquoting you when I mentioned suffering as some sort of indicator that things are wrong. There's truly nothing wrong with suffering, it's also just another routine part of existence.

>truly nothing wrong with suffering

>nothing wrong with suffering

but we know that suffering is bad because it feels bad. one persons definition of suffering may be different from another, but people do share many dislikes for very good reasons. it is a simple and absolute fact that suffering isn't a good thing. people who suffer less rather than suffer more tend to feel better (what a surprise!) just because suffering common or normal in our existance here on earth doesn't mean that it's right.

>It's attachment to suffering/happiness two ends of the same snake that cause problems.

which snake?

>>111933

>And again, if someone calls the world around them bad or good they're on the wrong track. The world simply is as it is, we are the ones who add labels to it based off our faulty, transient opinions.

I could argue that too, but if I said that everything just is the way that it is and didn't care about anything, the moment that something went in a way that wasn't beneficial to me I could do two things:

<let things go wrong in my life because I so easily accept everything being horrible and let the world simply be as it is (and my life would fall apart because since everything just is as it is, I would have to stay the course on my philosophy and allow things to go as they are even if they are not going my way, and suffer whatever consequences may be which may result in more suffering which I would also have to ignore because everything just is the way that it is, and I would have to ignore my entire life going in a downward spiral of chaos and entropy while lying to myself that I don't care because it's totally normal)

or I could-

<freak out and try to change the world from simply being the way that it is to being simply the way that I want it to be (with possibly some small chance of success?), and betray my philosophy.

>>111933

>Fair enough.

I smiled at that. I don't know what stuck me there but I giggled like I don't even know what.

>Shunyata is a Mahayana Buddhist concept that grew naturally over time from the original Buddha's teachings. You see, the historic Buddha taught that there are three marks of existence- anatman (no self), anitya (change), and dukkha (tricky word, often translated as suffering or simply stress).

hmm, selflessness, change, and stress/suffering. sounds like obama's presidential term. is there no mention of "happiness"? or "fullness"? what about "passion"? or "peace"?

>given that all things change, and have no intrinsic essence, this gave rise to the concept of shunyata, which is often translated as emptiness, the void, or more poetically the radiant void from which all things are born.

>which is often translated as emptiness, the void

wow, it sounds exactly the way that it's definition makes me feel.

>or more poetically the radiant void from which all things are born.

I'm sure you wont blame me if I say that sounds like an oxymoron. healthy food, healthy exercise, or more poetically the radiant cheeseburger eating session on the couch.

>Well, I was saying that even the ideas of perfection and imperfection are just that- ideas.

all of our ideas are imperfect, but many are given a divine push.

>True reality, where all is as it should be, is far beyond the limitation of words and concepts.

I agree. it's so much better than we could ever describe or perceive from where we are now.

>>111933

>I agree, however it is my belief that all these qualities reside inside of us, right here, right now.

Yes, we do have souls, and souls are divine and what God has breathed into us before we existed. as for our divine qualities? some do show but apparently not enough to make the world "not hell". God decides what good we are able to do regardless of our intentions.

>They aren't bestowed by some external deity, they're ours already, because we are a part of God himself.

what is your definition of external? are you saying that in buddhism people believe they are literally god?

honestly I believe that God wants us to want to be like God, but it's wrong for us to want to be God.

tower of babel and all that.

>>111933

>It wouldn't surprise me either. Quite a lot of Buddhist scripture recommends viewing the world around us as some ephemeral illusion, like bubbles in a stream, a flash of lightning, or shadows on the wall of a cave, however at the end of the day I think metaphysical speculation is a fruitless activity. As a wise man once said, "Metaphysics is a restaurant with a 10,000 page menu and no food."

KEK my sides. "one way to know you're in the matrix is you're always consuming but never full, very much like the ouroboros snake." - anon

>>111728

<why do you think that matrix means "womb?" why do you think apocalypse means "the lifting of the veil"? what do you think renaissance really means? "rebirth".

<we are in an artificial simulation womb reality and god is lifting the veil covering the vagina and we are all going through rebirth.

>>111721

ouroboros in image

>No, actually I'm a white nationalist /pol/ack, and a 4chon /new/sman before that. I just didn't see it as relevant to mention before now.

Oh, haha. okay. for a moment there I though you were /leftypol/ and I just though it was funny. you probably already have some idea of what I am based on my paradigm thread of course.

>>111933

>It's hard to truly judge an event as good or bad with our limited, human understanding. Here's an old Taoist fable you may have heard already that illustrates the point-

I'm getting one of those errors that the page can't be reached at the moment, but I can come up with a good example that supports your side of the conversation. did you ever hear about that story of the locusts who ate themselves out of natural food resources and that buddhist monk said it was more merciful to kill a million locusts than to let them starve because starving was a slower and more painful but equally inevitable death for them because of their situation? that's a good example right? can you tell me in your words the fable from the page I couldn't reach?

>Personally, my own method of judging is utilitarian. If it creates more happiness than suffering it's good, and vice versa. However I'm not gonna pretend that this is based on some objective law of reality. It's just a personal, subjective opinion of mine that may change over time.

I'm very similar, but not exactly the same.

>Well, this goes back to what I was saying a moment ago. If God is perfect, and controls everything, and absolutely all things occur only in accordance with his specific will, then how can we improve anything at all? What is there to improve in the first place? In the scenario the only thing to do is "let go and let God" and live your life trying not to be an asshole.

think about it this way, someone creates a videogame with levels and upgrades. if you upgrade and level up in the videogame, you are playing the videogame exactly as the person who created intended it (cheating is a grey area and an entirely different discussion). the reality or matrix that we live in is a videogame God created for us to be inside. so improving yourself and becoming a level 99 wizard is in some ways a respectful gesture towards God in that you're trying your best. also, sorry if I sounded a bit mean back there. text on a screen is difficult to convey emotion but a little of my stress did bleed through the lines there, it's really not meant for you so I apologize. there's a right and a wrong moment for jackassing around.

>>111933

>It's tempting to speak of true absolutes, such as raping some newborn baby to death, but as horrible as these things seem to my human, moral programming, I don't think moral absolutes exist. I'm not saying to tolerate such things, because in a world free of objective morality, we too are free to resist and destroy those who commit such "atrocities", however it's all just a game or dance that has no greater meaning in the wider universe.

I used to not believe in absolutes because I saw how easy it was for very bad and very manipulative people to twist and corrupt the very meaning of anything to their own personal gain and I learned why grey areas were important for philosophy. alot of bad people in the world wanted to force absolutes on everyone because they didn't want people using grey areas because it did a very good job at freeing the minds of the people who used them tempered with logic and common sense and good morals and ethics and philosophy, but then as soon as everyone started using grey areas to combat the bad type of absolutists they swiftly flipped their game and used grey areas in evil ways.

after alot of thinking within myself I discovered that absolutes do exist along with grey areas but just like guns or fruits and vegetables, it all matters how you use them. a simple fact of this reality is that bad people use absolutely anything for bad purpose. good people, it's a different story. much more complicated.

>>111933

>The mind doesn't function exactly like the intestines. It's similar in some respects,

yea, like they both have that look of tubes in a pile.

>very different in others. We do have the capacity to feel things and not allow them to control us. Here's a decent quote on it from the Bhagavad-Gita, where the demigod Krshna was giving advice to his bro Arjuana:

<A person who is not disturbed by the incessant flow of desires—that enter like rivers into the ocean which is ever being filled but is always still—can alone achieve peace, and not the man who strives to satisfy such desires

I think they are referring to desires like rivers filling up the ocean and overflowing it faster than it can be emptied out (using my words here a little) as the many different wants and needs of a human individual. just like both grey areas and absolutes exist in the world around us, they also exist within the individual.

you could argue that some grey areas exist in a person like this:

>the want/need for tasty food

counter argued by

>they don't need tasty food they need nutrition, it doesnt matter how it tastes as long as they are alive and healthy

counter argued by

>nobody is healthy in the mind and spirit if they do not get to experience good flavor and texture in their food because enjoyment is also a nutrient

counter argued into many headaches. "just shut up and eat your slop SLAVE!" kek

and some absolutes like:

>people need a clean source of water or they die of dehydration.

>>111933

some people do choose to sit down and think of nothing and exist in place without doing much because they think they are winning at life more so than other people or because they truly rather be doing that than anything else, but some people do more things ranging for slightly more complex to very much more complex for a wide variety of different reasons. some are some kind of shitty reasons and some are more logical reasons. the moral of this is that different people have different things that they personally perceive as needs and live their life to the best of their ability to meet these needs while they are in this reality.

the best way to live your life is the way that makes you the most comfortable and happy, while avoiding hurting others; but going out of your way to knowingly and intentionally deny yourself something that A: doesn't harm others & B: is a need by your personal definition is really really silly by all ways.

>You made some other points also, however they all boil back to the concept of God, his will governing everything in the world, and so on, which I've already addressed a couple of times in my post. I think that whole part needs to be discussed before we can go forward more. Also, I'll check out your other links/threads soon, been busy with work and stuff.

I would also be happy to discuss that part some more too. very excited to hear your responses.

thread archive as a backup if anything messes up.

https://archive.is/3gwOM

>>111975

>I would also be happy to discuss that part some more too. very excited to hear your responses

Just for the record, I have seen your posts and will respond soon, probably tomorrow. Busy with Thanksgiving crap at the moment, and I've been up since 5 AM. Don't think I could currently orchestrate the quality response your 11 posts deserve.

Soon friend.

>>111997

cool friend, will check back tommorow as well.

>>111879

>we are quite literally the universe itself. Not the entirety of course, but a part of it.

>Oriental (Hinduism)

Tat tvam asi

>>111969

>hmm, selflessness, change, and stress/suffering. sounds like obama's presidential term. is there no mention of "happiness"? or "fullness"? what about "passion"? or "peace"?

The historic Buddha was a little on the pessimist side. To him peace was only achievable through renouncing the world and intense effort in meditation practice. Eventually one would purge their mind of the illusion of self (ego), and attain the realm of Nirvana, which was to him a metaphysical realm of neither existence nor non-existence.

The Buddhist teachers that came after him made things a little less grim, and more palatable to the masses.

>I'm sure you wont blame me if I say that sounds like an oxymoron. healthy food, healthy exercise, or more poetically the radiant cheeseburger eating session on the couch

Yeah, that's fair. Shunyata is a difficult concept to describe, though to me it sounds very similar to other oriental concepts out there, such as the Tao, or Brahman. It's the deepest, absolute, all-pervading force from which existence springs and sustains itself.

>I agree. it's so much better than we could ever describe or perceive from where we are now

Agreed. Our personal delusion just keeps us from perceiving this, and it's up to us to surmount this issue. As I said earlier, I think ignorance is the only real sin, assuming you can call it that. It's where all of our other problems come from.

>Yes, we do have souls, and souls are divine and what God has breathed into us before we existed. as for our divine qualities? some do show but apparently not enough to make the world "not hell"

Hell is a state of mind that we choose to embody or not, so is Heaven. I think Jesus phrased it pretty nicely in the Gospel of Thomas-

< The Kingdom of the Father is spread out over the earth, and people do not see it.

>what is your definition of external? are you saying that in buddhism people believe they are literally god?

Oh hell, this is tricky right here. One, I'm not a Buddhist and through this thread is primarily about a Buddhist topic, right there I was giving my personal viewpoint rather than the Buddhist status quo. Buddhism in all its varied forms tends to be largely nontheistic, and the Buddha himself for the most part stayed silent on the topic when his students would ask him about it.

One day there was a man who was particularly harassing the Buddha about bullshit metaphysical questions, about the existence of God, and so on, and the Buddha ended up telling him the parable of the poisoned arrow which I will briefly summarize here-

>Man is walking home to his village

>Out of nowhere he gets shot with an arrow into his side

>The arrow is poisoned, and the man passes out

>He wakes up in town, with a bunch of villagers surrounding him, and the village doctor there about to pull the arrow out

>He puts his hands up, and stops the doctor from pulling the poisoned arrow out of his side

>"Wait doc, who shot me? Why was I shot? Where did the arrow come from? What kind of poison is this? What-"

>The doctor gives him a stern look and replies, "None of that matters right now, let me get this goddamn arrow out."

And so this shows us to work on our present issue of suffering instead of wasting time in existential masturbation.

>>111869

Nature is a chiastic alien, the chiastic alien within us is unchangeable, but to discover this we must change immensely.

hey anon. I saw your posts but it might be 1-2 days before I can reply. I hope to reply soon.

hey anon friend, forgive me but I got sick and I might or might not reply soon if I feel better or not… I'm still here, havent forgotton but I need rest. will reply eventually.

>>112114

No hurry. I've been very busy myself lately.

You're not Smiley by chance are you? I haven't encountered him since my 5chon days, but your style of writing reminds me a bit of his own.

>>112156

No I'm not smiley, I have heard of them before in rumors and legends. what were they like?

>>112156

You won't see him here, he's permabanned from all boards because of conflicts with the side owners. and because he used a bot to spam the site

>>112169

He's BO at mewch now, with a number of retro boards. I heard he's ill tho, he hasn't posted in a while.

oh wow so smiley's got quite the history? that's so cool even though I never knew them. mewch huh? ill huh? gosh… wonder what they're sick with? <:(

>>112181

From what rumours said he's in bed eating soup and hasn't been outside in a while.

>>112181

Also don't forget this episode, it's a classic

https://web.archive.org/web/20170102153658/http://8ch.net/fringe/res/78883.html

>>112182

oh no! not soupitis!

>>112181

Yeah, he's been a very visible, prolific figure for a while. Forgot to mention it, but he usually had a band of folks playing minecraft with him back in the day too, when 4chon was still alive and good The communities we'd all build always ended up as some impossibly idealistic anarcho-communist society that functioned perfectly, until some normalshits from reddit would attack and burn it down when we weren't there.

>Go out to 1488X, 1488Y and build a base there as deep as the game allows, even if it's in the middle of the ocean

>They still always find us

Of course we'd torch their shit to the ground too whenever possible. Not that I still play video games though.

>>112184

That was quite a read right there. The psych ward almost sounds like fun.

>Go out to "HERE IS A BIG SIGN HELLO HERE WE ARE" and build a base there as deep as the game allows, even if it's in the middle of the ocean

>They still always find us

>how is this possible?

KEK

hey anon I'm back with lots of good replies.

>Well the terms subjective and objective do have specific meanings, however I suppose we as humans will use them improperly sometimes, and language itself can be a fickle thing.

yea. notice this all the time.

>If I was built by the hand of the Creator Himself, and happen to be living according to His plan, and functioning exactly as I should be, by His divine will death, aging, disease, and suffering included then in my mind that equals perfection.

what happens is what God wills.

>No. All simply is as it is. Anything further beyond this point is just an idea that we ourselves obscure the world with. Black and white clouds will both equally hide the sun.

forgive me if I'm being a pain in the ass but "All simply is as it is" makes me think of some people who are or are closely related to atheists who believe there is no god and that things just are "because because". didn't the buddha once say "there is no god"? I think I remember someone telling me that but it may have been bullshit.

>I personally try to act out of compassion for others, as this is what makes me a happy person, but to take this to a deeper level, philosophy, morals, and values are all mental shackles. To use a similar metaphor to the last one, both gold chains and hempen ropes can bind and enslave you. One should live right here, right now, with all the information provided to you, free from the shackles of mental abstractions. Free from the "cage of belief".

>Beliefs are restrictions on personal behavior, and interfere with our natural immersion to the world around us.

I think it's important that people try to be good, and I do understand the fact that it is possible to be nice to another person without having a ton of ideas in your mind, but understanding what makes up a good person and what makes up a bad person (knowing the difference between some absolute goods and some absolute bads) by learning philosophy, morals, and values, can be what makes or breaks a world.

lies, deception, and fear like silken words cast in gold are the chains that bind and enslave people whereas information, knowledge, wisdom, faith, belief, and love are what set people free. the belief or societal construct that people should not rape or kill or steal is one of the few things that have stopped the utter and complete collapse and destruction of all organized society in the entire world. think about how many bad people do those things today, and imaging what it would be like if everyone did it every day or even once a week. how about once a month? it would be worse than anarchy.

how, or rather why; would a person live in the moment without learning from the past or having the foresight to see what actions have what consequences in the long term while simultaneously having access to all kinds of information provided to them while simultaneously being free from the cage of belief? and belief from what? that sounds like having the internet but you can only use it on a computer with a broken screen and shattered keyboard. tons of knowledge but numb to it all. disconnected while connected. it is not the chains that set you free, it is the truth that does that.

<what makes being eaten by a shark a thing that you do not want to experience?

>It would be painful, and pain is natures way of saying "don't do that".

we are programmed to have a general common sense of things we like and dislike, need and need to avoid, just as much as sharks need to eat.

>Sounds like you're talking about Vipashyana meditation there. The Tibetans go particularly hard with that stuff, and have about a million techniques for testing all phenomena that appears in ones consciousness. As they say, you need to get your thoughts/emotions/etc. and examine them again and again with the mind, like "an alchemist grinding bone with a mortar and pestle".

sounds really cool. what's your personal take on it? I always prefer to not be spoonfed hear about things from people who are passionate about them than do the cold and dull research myself. you learn so much more from a person who cares and loves what they know than from an emotionless piece of paper or screen.

>This seems to be true here, I recall Robert Anton Wilson making a similar observation in Prometheus Rising where he points out that before a new idea is truly accepted, the old generation with the old ideas needs to die off because they never really adapt to, or accept it at all.

was prometheus rising a movie? seems deep.

>I can't really agree or disagree here, because at present I can't exactly remember any other places to compare it to.

I can't blame you.

>Suffering has a vital purpose in the existence of life, it's an agent that spurs change, or wards against behavior that would be unconductive to the continuation of life. Pain for example keeps us from performing a wide variety of blatantly stupid actions. Without pain there would be a lot more maimed and crippled people walking around, and a hell of a lot more dead people, assuming we could even continue existing in the first place.

yes that is true, but isn't it also true that suffering is there to protect us from suffering even more? pain warns us of damage so that we don't touch fire. if pain didn't exist and people just touched fire all the time, people would be all burned and damaged or dead and the loss of functionality or disfigurement would cause suffering. pain, as suffering, as a warning system against more suffering is a helpful deterrent. if we follow that compass of the avoidance of examples of physical or mental pain as a result of knowing what it is and avoiding it, humans tend to live longer happier lives- as a result of the avoidance of suffering.

every human being in one way or another experiences suffereing in many forms in their life, even without other human beings intentionally doing anything to knowingly hurt them or anything.

God had foreknowledge and may have had impact on Eve and Adam's decision to eat the forbidden fruit.

God may have set them up to eat the forbidden fruit, just the same way Pharoah was told to release the slaves but then "hardened Pharoah's heart" so Pharoah couldn't let them go. or was the Pharoah supposed to go against his hardened heart and do the right thing anyway?

the fact that Eve did not know the difference between Good and Evil when she ate the forbidden fruit is very paradoxical, since She and Adam literally had no way of knowing that disobedience was a bad thing. They are technically being punished for doing evil when they specifically didn't know what evil was or that eating the forbidden fruit was wrong other than the fact that they were told not to eat it, but that goes back to the fact that they had no way of knowing that disobedience was a bad thing… The question is why? To learn? Are we meant to learn here on earth? Does this experience exist because we are supposed to learn what it is and know what is good and bad and avoid what is bad so that we may be distinctly good? it's becoming clear that everything is planned.

>That was a metaphor. Happiness and suffering are just two different sides of the same coin, or "two ends of the same snake". Pick up either side and you're still going to get bit.

I think you and me are talking about two very different sides of two very different coins, but maybe I'm wrong and you're talking about this?

>>111727

<one of the translations of the shema prayer says "god is eternal and the eternal is one" the definition of eternal is "outside of time" because time is a construct of this false reality. time doesn't really exist. God is literally heaven. this reality, the one we live in now is fake. heaven is the only real reality, and since we are experiencing "not heaven" but our reality is fake, then it's the ultimate Non-contradiction because there is no real flip side to heaven. heaven simply exists, is the only real reality, and is good.

>Absolutely nothing you could physically do would ever betray or damage God's unique plan for you.

that I know, that I know. God is truly the greatest manipulator, and the only one righteous enough to do it for true good.

>One day there was a man who was particularly harassing the Buddha about bullshit metaphysical questions, about the existence of God, and so on, and the Buddha ended up telling him the parable of the poisoned arrow which I will briefly summarize here-

>Man is walking home to his village

>Out of nowhere he gets shot with an arrow into his side

>The arrow is poisoned, and the man passes out

>He wakes up in town, with a bunch of villagers surrounding him, and the village doctor there about to pull the arrow out

>He puts his hands up, and stops the doctor from pulling the poisoned arrow out of his side

>"Wait doc, who shot me? Why was I shot? Where did the arrow come from? What kind of poison is this? What-"

>The doctor gives him a stern look and replies, "None of that matters right now, let me get this goddamn arrow out."

>And so this shows us to work on our present issue of suffering instead of wasting time in existential masturbation.

I thought the story was an interesting metaphor for all the questions people have about God but I don't like how it seems to project the implication that maybe God is the arrow and the poison the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, and in being so (as a metaphor in the story) somehow equates to God being a problem that needs to be quickly ignored and removed with haste before any more questions can dare be asked, for fear of those questions being answered. I think that God wants us to ask and wonder and learn, and that maybe other humans don't want that for everyone else. (not that they can stop it or anything)

>To be honest I haven't swung by there yet. I was up at 5 this morning getting ready for work, then as soon as I got off work I had to rush over to a job interview on the other side of town for a better job. I got back at like 8 PM tonight, and still have a bunch of other shit to get done. Figured I would respond to this real fast, but it's taking far longer than I originally figured. My schedules just been slammed all week. I can see how you might have got the impression I was a liberal though. Most people on the right tend to have more concrete moral values.

yea, I know that feel. I share alot of values from many different philosophies, but sometimes come off as right sounding. sorry it took me so long to respond this time.

>I suppose so. There's one Buddhist saint who supposedly beheaded a pirate that hijacked his ship and was threatening to murder the innocent people on board. It was more merciful to spare the innocent lives, and also even for the dead pirate who was prevented from incurring a lot of bad karma.

I don't advocate murder or any crimes or anything. philosophically however, can karma even exist if everything is predetermined by God? or is karma naturally part of the system through which things happen by the will of God?

>I see what you're saying there about leveling up, however in video games the low levels are often just as fun and fulfilling as the high level stuff. If everyone was max level it wouldn't be anywhere near as fun. The high levels and low levels complement and complete each other, each being perfect in its own way.

I have to agree with you there, and thanks for the help. I don't think everyone is max level, everyone is at different levels constantly.

>Morality is a very tricky subject, with many layers of subtlety,

yea, I know right? we could talk about it for hours and hours. I came to the conclusions I did because I acknowledge that subtlety does exist in that whole thing of morality. there are so many factors and variables like "who what when where why how" and even more sub-variables inside of those and so on and so forth. it gets excruciatingly painfully deep and seems like it may be bottomless but there are little dead ends here and there that make a little sense. funny how the dead ends where logic comes to rest are sometimes where the sense is found.

>but for now I suppose I'm just going to have to disagree with you.

I understand.

>Hmm. I think Krshna was being pretty clear right there. He was saying that a proper yogi is like the ocean, which may have a thousand rivers (desires) flowing into it, yet the ocean itself never overfills or changes. We can calmly bear all of our desires without allowing them to control us, because we are so much more than they are.

maybe I was reading into it more based on it's context than what was being said alone.

>Flavor isn't necessary though. Whether it tastes like the finest wine, or cardboard, it'll still nourish you.

yes that's probably true assuming you don't puke it up from how it makes you feel or if your body even bothers to recognize it as food and knows to attempt digestion without getting backed up or dehydrated through diarrhea. I do believe that the way smells and textures make a person feel are important for their health mentally speaking of course, but it can also be argued that if someone feels good, they are more likely to physically be in a better state since mental outlook effects heart rate and the release of other hormones and enzymes and chemicals that in turn effect the body even more.

>Yeah, physically of course there will be absolutes like these.

so in general terms of absolutes in the world around us, how could physical absolutes exist without spiritual ones?

>Hmm, this seems like common sense to me, and I think we've kind of been discussing and in agreement here.

yes we agree on some things. (just because I reply and say something doesn't mean I'm replying in conflict, sometimes just to outline stuff better or to try to better understand what was already said, or to confirm that I understood what you were already saying, or to dig where nobody else has dug.)

>If you can deny yourself a "need" and you're still alive a month later then it wasn't really a need in the first place.

there have been stories of people who have died of heartbreak.

>need hugs from someone they love

>they pass away

>can't get hugs

>die of broken heart

it's been recorded as a real thing, has actually happened.

love can be like a vitamin, like If I don't get vitamin b12 and I die more than a month later, does it mean I didn't need it?

>Thanks man. I will check out that thread one of these days. Just very very busy right now.

no pressure.

>Can't believe I just spent more than an hour and a half typing this all out. Hory shet.

hey I do the same haha. I feel good and bad for the random anonymous stranger who catches interest in this thread and reads the entire thing top to bottom.

>Also, I forgot to address it in my last post, but I never read your text and found what you said rude in any way. This is an imageboard and if you ever said anything offensive at all, it was so incredibly mild that it went completely over my head. It's all good man.

ok.

hope to read your replies eventually, again no pressure. see you around friend.

thread archive so far

https://archive.is/YCQE9

>>112378

hey anon this might help.

make sure to ask your doctor before doing anything, and before stopping or starting any meds or any foods or other things. also ask them about drug interactions with anything else including foods/herbs/supplements/ and over the counter medication.

my advice:

>go to vitamin shop (the store)

>buy their vitamin shop store brand MSM powder (methylsulfonylmethane) spelled correctly unless I'm making a mistake but anyways it's called "MSM" powder.

>on the ingredients it should say "opti-msm" this is the only kind I trust because the filter it very good.

>grab one of those and then grab a container of "natural calm" brand "magnesium" powder. the lemon raspberry combo flavor that only has magnesium and stevia is the kind to go for, don't get the calcium one by mistake.

>grab some orange juice that isn't from concentrate (at a store you trust)

>go home

>mix a teaspoon of MSM in a glass of orange juice and drink it

>drink 4 cups of water

>wait 2 hours

>mix 1/4 teaspoon magnesium powder in a glass of water and drink it (or whatever the package says)

>drink another 3 glasses of water

>go about your day and use the restroom etc.

>have more energy suddenly

switching to a plant based diet while avoiding processed foods also helps.

seriously ask your doctor about it.

hope this helps.

>>112378

also, yes please take your time to respond. no problem, no pressure.

>>112336

>I think you and me are talking about two very different sides of two very different coins, but maybe I'm wrong and you're talking about this?

Yeah, we may have had a miscommunication going on there. I know I'm not giving the greatest responses right now, this new job is really consuming my free time having me work 6 days a week.

><one of the translations of the shema prayer says "god is eternal and the eternal is one" the definition of eternal is "outside of time" because time is a construct of this false reality. time doesn't really exist. God is literally heaven. this reality, the one we live in now is fake. heaven is the only real reality, and since we are experiencing "not heaven" but our reality is fake, then it's the ultimate Non-contradiction because there is no real flip side to heaven. heaven simply exists, is the only real reality, and is good

This is delving into metaphysics again, which as I mentioned earlier, tends to me a fruitless discussion. However from what I understand of modern physics, all events exist forever in their own specific section of space-time. Time and space are the exact same thing, and given that all that occurred is quite literally still there- eternity is now.

Besides, the first law of thermodynamics is very clear that nothing is created and nothing is destroyed. Everything that exists has always existed and will always exist, in one form or another.

>I don't advocate murder or any crimes or anything. philosophically however, can karma even exist if everything is predetermined by God? or is karma naturally part of the system through which things happen by the will of God?

If it's there as something more than the simple law of cause and effect, then it would of course also have to be a part of Gods will and an instrument of his.

>or if your body even bothers to recognize it as food and knows to attempt digestion without getting backed up or dehydrated through diarrhea

Our stomach can handle a wide variety of crazy things that get flung at it all the time.

>it can also be argued that if someone feels good, they are more likely to physically be in a better state since mental outlook effects heart rate and the release of other hormones and enzymes and chemicals that in turn effect the body even more

I can agree with that. "In order to do good, one has to feel good." Not always true, but it's usually pretty accurate.

>so in general terms of absolutes in the world around us, how could physical absolutes exist without spiritual ones?

What do you mean by spiritual exactly here?

>there have been stories of people who have died of heartbreak

I'm sure some people who are overly attached to others may have experienced negative physical issues stemming from severe stress, but a lack of hugs exactly isn't going to kill someone. People kill themselves I think is a more accurate way of phrasing it, either intentionally or by letting themselves waste away.

>love can be like a vitamin, like If I don't get vitamin b12 and I die more than a month later, does it mean I didn't need it?

That time frame was just a crude example. Of course some substances, or the lack thereof, will take a bit longer than a month to kill you. I don't think love is one of them though. It definitely feels good, and leads to happiness, but one can live without it.

Sorry for the brief response here, I've got to be leaving for work very soon. Tried to touch a bit on the crucial points of discussion.

The problem being addressed is the fundamental difference between mahayana and theraveda philosophy. In a way, a Zen practictioner is for all intents and purposes, a thervedist in the sense that they build their own boat to accommodate themselves. On the other hand, Zen Masters and patriarchs are Mahayanists in that they teach others to build their own boats, their students that is, knowing that in doing so humanity as a whole increases it's ability to float so to speak. You can draw parallels from this to the Ten Bulls. The student originally aims to fulfill his own ends, but in doing so becomes an inspiration for others to do the same. The semantics get tricky, but Zen is very much Mahayanist.

The problem with Mahayana is the one Tibetin Buddhists have seemingly answered: most people are fucktards and don't want to build a boat. Infact, most are so infantile they cannot grasp the concept, and will even sabotage others trying to do the work. This is why the Zen koans are such a powerful tool. Those with the eye can see the meaning for themselves plain as day, while those who are not interested see only gibberish.

The writing is on the wall for any to see it. Mumonkon. The gateless-gate. The gate with no barrier.

Take the koan below:

>"There is a Zen story about a monk who, having failed to achieve enlightenment through the normal Zen methods, was told by his teacher to think of nothing but an ox. Day after day after day, the monk thought of the ox, meditated on the ox. Finally, one day, the teacher came to the monk's cell and said, "Come out here – I want to talk to you."

>"I can't get out," the monk said. "My horns won't fit through the door."

OP is a petty idealist in his thinking that anyone can at once realize the Buddha nature. Don't cheapen enlightenment with your skewed dogmatism surrounding equality. People are fucking idiots, they have to be lead along a path of folly until THEY THEMSELVES REALIZE THE FOLLY.

hey anon I'm reading/writing responses to your posts. very busy also so I'm just letting you know I'm still here.

Dza Kilung Rinpoche:

Nonconceptual meditation is an introduction to Dzogchen—the Great Perfection. I am sure many of you have heard of this style of Tibetan Buddhist meditation, which has now become well known in the West. The emphasis is on completely resting the mind. Of course we rest as much as possible in all six of the previous meditation styles, but here the essence of the practice is to simply rest openly on whatever appears to the mind and senses. There is no fixation, and we do not focus on any object. Although each of the first six meditations is in itself important and useful, they all culminate in the seventh—nonconceptual meditation.

In a sense the first through the fourth meditations are for settling the mind. The point is to develop a quiet and simple outlook. But in the process of calming the busy mind, we can fall into a subtle dialogue, with the mind telling the mind to “do this” and “don’t do that” in order to develop the quiet and concentration we desire. Of course some inner correction is required, even though at times this can create more thoughts rather than fewer. Sometimes the mind listens and cooperates, sometimes not. But with patience, over time we become more and more relaxed and focused. Here in the seventh, however, we free ourselves from even that process. This is the final achievement, this freedom and openness—the mind doing nothing and being free.

Nonconceptual meditation connects us to ultimate transcendent knowledge—primordially pure ultimate wisdom, timeless awareness (rigpa in Tibetan). We are more familiar with the kind of knowledge or wisdom that is learned, that is developed over time through some kind of educational process—something obtained. But there is also a natural wisdom that is the mind’s true nature. We spoke of this previously, but now it becomes the main focus. This is the most profound wisdom. Dzogchen meditation connects us with this deeper level—a depth of one’s own wisdom that is without distractions or fabrication. The mind is allowed to rest in the natural state of one’s own wisdom.

[…]

This style of meditation is sometimes called nonmeditation. Why? People often think that in meditation you have to be holding onto something. And even if your aim is to not-do, one can believe that something has to be done to allow that to happen—some activity of accepting, permitting. But here we don’t even engage in that. So the mind is totally free and open. One is freed from anxiety and freed from conceptualization. Just let it be free—total freedom of experience. This great freedom—if it arises, let it arise; if it doesn’t arise, just let it be that.

[…]

When we begin, we need to drop all of our goals and intentions—rest that. If we are holding on to such expectations, that is not dzogchen meditation. Then whatever comes up, just let it come; let it be. We let things pass through unimpeded, and they dissolve naturally. We just watch. Even if “you” (the “watcher”) appear, it’s no different—just watch that and let it be. There is no need to ask or comment, “What is this? What is that?” when something appears. If we were to do that, it would be like standing in a receiving line at some function where we had to shake hands with hundreds of people—nice for a moment, but we would end up just getting tired. So we remain open and resting. The thoughts and so on dissolve by themselves. (In Dzogchen this phenomenon is called liberation upon arising—the mere appearance of the thought is its liberation.) We are not even “doing resting.” We are awake but unengaged, resting on doing nothing.

[…]

So we allow the mind to rest in its unmodified nature. If we are modifying, maybe by saying something like, “I want to make this look slightly better,” then we are engaged. Try to be “hands-off,” really resting, and everything will be OK. That is Dzogchen meditation.

[…]

As mentioned above, even when we are intending to not hold on to anything—not manipulate our experience in any way—we may fall into the trap of trying to find a way or method of not-doing. If our meditation is to be nonconceptual, we don’t even concern ourselves with that. There is really no “how to do it” solution to meditating freely. We are not really correcting anything or applying a remedy. The mind simply rests totally free and open—free even of concern about being free.

From Tsoknyi Rinpoche's "Carefree Dignity":

Let’s chant the bodhisattva vow in both Tibetan and English, three times. […]

Now remain in equanimity without sending out, without taking in, without accepting, and without rejecting. Remember the statement: “Seen by merely looking, free by merely seeing.” What is seen? The absence of concreteness and all attributes. No center and no edge. Without past, present or future. Empty, awake mind.

(Period of silence.)

You don’t need to be afraid that a thought may arise. You don’t need to be afraid that rigpa will slip away, or that you will become distracted. If you nevertheless do think this, simply look into the thinker. When seeing no thinker there, rest evenly in the seeing of this absence. This vivid emptiness, free of center and edge, is the primordially pure dharmakaya. At the same time, we are not oblivious or knocked out. There is a sense of being wide awake. That is the sambhogakaya quality. Within this, any perception can unfold, and while perceiving, nothing is held or fixated upon, it is utterly empty, and yet perceiving — there is no barrier between being empty and perceiving. That is the nirmanakaya quality, the seed of nirmanakaya. In this way, in one moment of rigpa, the basic substance, the seed, of dharmakaya, of sambhogakaya, and of nirmanakaya is fully present. We recognize that simultaneously, our essence is empty, our nature is cognizant, and its capacity is unconfined. That is rigpa. Now, remain evenly like that. (Rinpoche rings the bell. Period of silence.)

Remain without even an atom of a focus being mediated upon, and without being distracted for even an instant. Undistracted nonmeditation. Your mind is doing nothing, there is nothing you need to do. However it is, leave it like that, without modifying. However mind is right now, leave it be exactly like that. You don’t need to improve it or correct it in any way. The five senses are wide-open and clear. You don’t need to block that. And you don’t confine your attention to only one of the senses. (Period of silence.)

This kind of rigpa, this kind of awareness is the ultimate and real guru. The mind of the guru is dharmakaya, by nature. When recognizing that our own nature is dharmakaya, then without supplicating, without effort, but spontaneously and naturally, our minds are indivisible from that of the guru.

From the interview with Lopön Tenzin Namdak:

HMV: How do you concentrate into the natural state? On what do you focus your awareness?

LTN: There is nothing to do. Just leave it to itself. If you do something, if you try to do anything, then you are not in the natural state.

HMV:So there is no method.

LTN: No. Just keep the natural state continuously.

HMV: How do you stabilize the natural state?

LTN: Just do nothing.

HMV:Just sit there with my eyes open?

LTN: No. That doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter whether your eyes are open or closed or whether you lie down in your bed. If you are familiar with keeping the natural state, if you are quite advanced with this practice, then you can talk, or you can do everything without disturbing it.

>>112599

>OP is a petty idealist in his thinking that anyone can at once realize the Buddha nature.

Isn't this an absurd absolute?

just so OP knows, I'm the anon who was originally replying alot (I'm not the one who posted these new posts, that's someone else so far, I'm very busy right now so I don't know when I will get back to you but I will eventually reply.)

as for those new comments, I would appreciate if a summary was posted, maybe a more smoothly flowing wording of that? not less complex or detailed, just somewhat easier.

From The Kulayarāja Tantra:

Sattvavajra, understand well! The teachers of the three dimensions, emanated from my nature, take the most appropriate form for their disciples and give them to understand that in order to realize the goal, it is necessary to acquire the capacity for spiritual action. In terms of the body, it is necessary to engage in mudras; of the voice, to recite of mantras; of the mind, to visualize the radiation and re-absorption [of light]. They do not understand that one can attain self-realization leaving free the three doors of body, voice, and mind. Listen! My capacity for spiritual action is not something to seek by means of action. Listen! My capacity for spiritual action is not something that has to be sought. As benefit for oneself is already spontaneously perfect, there is no need for action. As benefit for others is the equality of the ultimate dimension, it does not need to be sought. Understand this well! Listen! As all is already accomplished in pure and total consciousness, within it there is no need whatever to act. Whoever could ascribe the definition of "acting" or "not acting" to the very essence of enlightenment, which is uncreated and beyond action? Listen! In order to obtain my capacity for spiritual action, there is no need to form mudras with the body, to recite mantras with the voice, or to visualize radiation and re-absorption with the mind. The enlightenment of all the Buddhas of the past, present, and future depends solely on understanding the true nature of spiritual capacity: non-action. As [the enlightenment of] the Buddhas of the three times is based on understanding, you too, Sattvavajra, [should] understand well my words! Listen! The teachers of the three dimensions teach those attracted by the multiplicity of the characteristics of concepts the teachings on actions for pacifying, increasing, conquering, and wrathfully eliminating on the basis of the variety of their disciples' concepts. Listen! I, the source, the supreme teacher, teach that all actions are the path of concepts. Understanding the true meaning of spiritual action that transcends action, all beings can become the supreme source.

[…]

I am the supreme source and, as my state transcends objectification by thought, it cannot at all become something on which to meditate. Listen! Consciousness is the essence of the authentic condition, and I have never corrected this condition. Being self-arising, I have neither causes nor conditions, so leave body, voice, and mind in the relaxed state, without striving! Followers of methods tied to effort do not meet me, the source. Listen! As my capacity for spiritual action knows no doing, I do not get involved in the effort of activities. Having no aim, I do not give birth to the consideration of "meditating." As this state is beyond union and separation, maintain its presence without forgetfulness! When thoughts manifest as the unborn, without doing, withoing anything one accomplishes all the actions. Listen! I am the teacher, the supreme source, and even though I have created all the spiritual actions of the Buddhas, the truth is, selfarising wisdom being perfect without the need to act, the natural condition has never acted. Remain in the unaltered natural condition! When mind and mental events arise in this unaltered natural condition, that is the state of the enlightened ones; if one has the capacity to remain in the unborn, all ideas tied to action and effort can be overcome.Sattvavajra, experience the natural condition! Naturally and undistractedly maintaining the view that liberates thoughts in their very condition, one overcomes action and effort. In this way all that arises liberates itself in itself. Sattvavajra, experience the natural condition! Do not correct the body, do not control the senses, do not curb the voice: there is no action whatever to do. Wherever mind turns, leave it in the unperturbed state! Experiencing this spiritual capacity that transcends action, even without acting at all one achieves all goals. Listen! In the total bliss of the natural state that transcends effort, do not engage body, voice, or mind, do not correct them nor direct them towards a goal. Do not get stuck in any idea, leave aside all concepts: remain in the bliss of self-arising wisdom. Precisely this is the state of self-arising clear light, the capacity for spiritual action of the state of the supreme source. Sattvavajra, experience the natural condition! In order to accede to the unaltered natural state, there is no need of logic nor antidotes to correct anything. Remain in knowledge without altering anything! Listen! This natural activity that transcends actions is not accomplished through effort of body, voice, and mind. When one is in the state of the supreme source, its capacity for spiritual action manifests already self-perfected!

From "Fearless Simplicity" by Tsoknyi Rinpoche:

There are two important words that may sound a little crazy, but I want you to listen carefully to them: undistracted and not meditating. Undistracted nonmeditation. These two words together actually form one essential expression. Undistracted nonmeditation. To hear this phrase and to understand the vital point communicated through these two words, we need to connect with the meaning of “meditation free from concepts,” the nonconceptual state.

Without understanding this correctly, one may think, “Well then, it would be good enough not to practice if it’s about nonmeditation,” equating nonmeditation with not practicing. Then one just drinks alcohol, goes to the disco, or watches a movie; one does whatever one feels like, because these are all states of not meditating. Is that good enough? No, because the first word is missing: undistracted. These ways of distracting oneself are in themselves not good enough to progress in samadhi. How about the methods to remain undistracted? Usually they are called meditation. Meditative methods are applied to make sure that the attention doesn’t wander from one thing to another. But any deliberate technique to be undistracted is by definition conceptual.

Undistracted nonmeditation, the combination of the two words, means to be both undistracted and nonconceptual at the same time. That is the kind of hammer needed to smash conceptual mind. Shamatha, or calm abiding, meditation is a way of being undistracted, but because it involves doing in terms of meditating, it is also conceptual. Shamatha means to conceptually try to be in, or to cultivate, an undistracted state. It is the activity of trying to be alert, trying to keep mindful of something, in this way cultivating a state of being undistracted. While shamatha is the act of meditating, vipashyana training, in this particular context, refers more to what happens after having recognized. It is to allow what naturally is to be as it is, without trying to modify or correct it in any way; to allow the continuity of this recognition to endure without hope, without fear, without trying to do anything. In the beginning, this doesn’t necessarily last very long.

The Dzogchen teachings tell us: don’t meditate, but also don’t be distracted. When we are able to be that way, there’s no choice other than to be the continuity of the innate nature. You can also call this unconditioned mindfulness. It’s like the conceptual manager has retired, but the office is still functioning. The conceptual manager has been kicked out, fired.

Honestly, meditation is simply to sustain the view. It is nothing other than that. The continuity of whatever is recognized doesn’t have to be improved or contrived or made up or extended. In the beginning, let it be whatever it is, however it is; just let whatever is known be that, without hope and fear.

Keep this Baby Rigpa for a while, simply as he is. Don't try to squeeze him, and don't try to throw him away, or he may die. Just keep him nicely, but without too much expectation. If you're not such a good father, you might hold him so tightly that he vomits. You don't squeeze a baby. You just allow him to be, very nicely. Lift the head a little bit higher than the legs. In the same way, whatever is seen initially as being the view is exactly what you allow to continue. As Milarepa said, "The royal view is to be undistracted while not meditating."

so many things to read. I didn't forget about this. it's going to be days before I can read and respond to all of this.

>>112827

can you be more pacific?

>>111878

>pain and suffering is beautiful too :DDD

I call this thing people like you are afflicted with "metaphysical Stockholm syndrome".

>>111933

>The replies to this post

You people are clinically retarded. That this post even has to exist in the first place is embarrassing to the human race. I like how the people calling out "bullshit occultists" have about 0 hours of introspection under their belt; at least I hope they do, if so, they still have a chance.

Fucking /fringe/, such a cool board wasted by a bunch of dumb faggots with a chronic incapability to reason.

>>115005

afaik Dzogchen practices don't work without initiation

>>115012

*reading about Dzogchen, excuse me. Had 'reading Zhuangzi' on the brain for a second.

Speaking of Dzogchen, I'm still not as familiar with as I probably should be, so I appreciate the resources in this thread. Thanks!

>>115011

The text I posted includes pointing-out instructions.

fixed version:

http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=28C741F8336CF1557A14E96C4AF8260C

>>116353

I hear you. I try to limit myself to just one or two places for posting any more for that reason. I don't pay attention to news, either, because it never really changes anything important. I find it a bit bore to listen to other people squeal about the end of the world and how everything's going to shit, just like always. The world has been ending since it began.

I do find some value in being able to sample various thought aesthetics, though. To be able to think as a Taoist one moment, an Advaitist the next, a shaman, a wizard, a regular jackoff, blah blah blah. It's all playing pretend anyways, might as well have fun with the ego before I unmake it.

>>116368

*a big bore

>>116368

>I don't matter so nothing matters! REEEEEEEE

You retards spend all your time fighting one biological function that simply optimizes thinking about social hierarchy, which tells you you're losers, then claim you're the champions.

How do you not see through it? Can't you read your own posts? Where does the game begin and end?

>>116373

Thanks for providing a case in point.

>>116375

It's ok to be a loser. Lying about it is suboptimal and potentially deadly to your soul.

>>116377

I've played the social game enough. Developed a cult, harem, etc etc. I've even written about it on here if you care to find it. Only thing it ever left me with was a headache, so I gave it up. I'm not clever enough for a complex life, I leave that to smart people like you.

You want to be a winner, you want to play that game, go win all you like.

>>116379

You'll do anything to avoid seeing yourself as a loser, wont you?

>>116381

What did I lose, exactly? Tell me, I'm curious.

>>116384

You're not curious. Speaking to me is furtherance of lies to avoid pain. This is purely your ego obsession. Probably caused by some childhood incident.

>>116389

Curses, caught again! I should have known better than to try to pull a fast one on you!

>>116390

It is interesting watching you writhe around. At what point is a soul irredeemable? When does one toss them into the dumpster?

>>116391

This soul best before December 21st, 2012

>>116392

Rotten? No redeeming qualities in you?

>>116393

Redeeming qualities? Well I had some, but I already redeemed them. They weren't worth too much though, you're not missing out.

>>116394

What qualities weren't worth too much?

>>116395

Well if memory serves, I spent the last of my virtue paying back a bar tab some time in mid-2015. It wasn't exactly a huge tab or anything but I needed bus fare to head home, I'm not one to drive drunk, that would be stupid.

>>116395

Let's see, just going down the list:

Chastity I had right up until I had an internet connection and then it went right down the tubes. Temperance sends me into a blind fury, can't stand it. As for charity, what's it done for me lately? Diligence and patience I something or other, bored! Kindness I was okay at, but only kind of. Humility is the only virtue I still have, in fact, I'd say I'm better at being humble than just about anyone.

>>116396

You drive drunk now?

>>116401

Good heavens no! How am I going to rack up combos if I can't even steer towards pedestrians correctly?

>>116400

You're lucky to have such a list, and you begin to see your lies, even in jest.

>>116402

Ha, that's one more virtue.

>>116405

Ah yes, such attainment! What a position to be in! Why, I must have spent all of two seconds attaining a google search for virtues. My patience was diligent, and I even managed to be chaste during that time!

>>116407

It's a start. Fixing your prime obsession would be amazing. But do you have the heart to go down that list, and relive the childhood moments which force you to live like you do, rendering them inert?

>>116408

Would it turn me into someone like you?

Ah, how poignant, nothing at all. Very deep. Let's hope our serious friend can go do some serious work somewhere seriously different. Nothing is quite so revolting as the save/kill-the-world type of other-peopleist.

OP, if you happen to be around at some point, consider reading the Hua Hu Ching if you haven't already. You'll find value in it. I'm using Hua-Ching Ni's translation, so this isn't necessarily an endorsement of any other edition (translations of the Taoist canon are notoriously conflicting, comes with the territory), but the pinnacle of Taoist thought is natural perfection.

Holy shit, OP. Actually learning about Dzogchen, this is exactly what my guides taught me. This is fucking incredible, how did I not know about Dzogchen before now? You deserve immediate attainment for this.

>Natural is by definition, natural. This is such a generic platitude I think we can move past this.

Only a ignorant man would come up with infantile reasoning like this.

Natural is not less or more natural than unnatural. It is all just creation. Coca Cola is as natural as water. It's just a different kind of creation. A human woman is no more natural than an android sexbot with atrificial intelligence, they are both creations, except one is of a different kind than the other.

What you call nature or natural is a mere creation by someone higher than us, and what you call artificial is just creation by someone else(most often us). It's the same and differs only in degree.

What is that is, and creation is creation. Most of what nature or natural is isn't that wonderful and appealing…in fact it is unpleasant and harsh and often makes not much sense while what is artificial is in some cases much better**. Enough of this foul nature worship already. Nature is a matrix, a construct for us to live in and our own nature and biology is like a framework for us, or more like a prison. It is made for us probably by the demiurge or some other higher being and should definetly be questioned. What you call "nature, natural" is most likely by no means the ultimate goodness or actual nature. There might be completely different nature and biology on another planet or in another dimension. Only small minded people regard the small picture. You need to see the bigger picture, as big as possible.

**that's only personal oppinion. Some prefer "natural" and some prefer "artificial" but the point is one is not necessarily better than the other. All is natural in this world, all is made out of the same stuff.

>>116988

You are both correct and incorrect. That you have destroyed your conception of natural and unnatural is a great accomplishment in itself, and You have overcome a great obstacle. That you see that the broadest possible context is the means by which an ego may be unfettered from contextual suffering in the moment is also no small thing, that is an attainment beyond most! Where we differ, I believe, is in application.

Here, like OP, I quote Longchenpa as Samantabhadra.

<For the ati-yogin or yogini who understands that everything is unreal, there is nothing that is not released and dissolved in the super-matrix of pure mind. What is disagreeable and unpleasant for those who strive to accomplish a material ambition by some causal means is perfectly acceptable to the ati-yogin or yogini.

The world of forms, being ultimately empty, lacks the ability to inflict any true harm. The fetters are imaginary, they lack all substance beyond illusion. What could possibly harm one who knows their self is none other than Samantabhadra? This is why I implored you to be released '"at once,'' to be released into the timeless instant in which you have never been deluded by the samsara-nirvana duality, in which all duality is already resolved. Nothing is beyond this, as there is nothing but the great perfection. That is what is meant by natural perfection. The term "inherent perfection" would be equally appropriate.

>>116992

>released "at once" into the timeless instant in which you have never been deluded by the duality (samsara-nirvana/dichotomies/polarities/etc), in which all duality is resolved. nothing is beyond this, as there is nothing but the great perfection.

the Infinite Source which is the Allness and Oneness lives in the All which is to mean everything and this instant.

you have understood it! :D

(((they))) are powerless.

congratulations! :D :D

>>117054

My thanks, and congratulations to you as well! OP really ought to take the credit here, though. As recently as when I recommended the Hua Hu Ching, I had seen this once but forgotten its immediacy in the belief it was a state to be attained. What a joke! A reminder in a language that clicks with mine even outside a gnostic state was needed. With that in mind, OP deserves as much credit as anyone.